fixation on tuba mouthpieces

[TubaBobH]

Question: Do other brass players (trumpet, French horn, trombone/euphonium players) fixate on mouthpieces as much as we tuba players seem too? I don't think they do, but my music contacts/knowledge/exposure is not nearly as developed as others on this forum. If I am correct, and we do fixate more than others, is it because our mouthpieces have more configuration/variation possibilities than other instruments' mouthpieces because our mouthpieces are so much larger? This may seem like a silly question, but I really am curious. (Note: I am not immune from this fixation, although I am not as bad as I used to be. Perhaps I can be classified as a "Recovering Tuba Mouthpiece Addict". I do try not to miss too many RTMA meetings. )

[Peach]

Here's my take on it:

Trumpet players: VERY bad. Many switch mouthpieces more frequently than I change my shirt.
Horn players: Rarely switch, if ever.
Trombone players: Vast majority buy something 5G-esque and stick with it unless they also play in Jazz groups or WHY.
Euph players: As horn.

I think it has a lot to do with the massive variations in tubas themselves.
Is it fair to say that most tubists find a mouthpiece for each of their tubas and stick with that?? I suspect a majority do.

Certainly Horns & Euphs keep to the same key and general size so don't perhaps have the same 'need' to change mouthpieces like tubists and trumpeters seem to where their instruments are a large variable.
Trombonists often play in a variety of groups but, in my experience, mostly have one mouthpiece per horn/style - ie: Alto, Tenor, Bass, Symphonic, Studio, Jazz etc etc.

[GJDavis1]

Um trumpet players are always talking about what mouthpiece is better than the other. I'd say they're just as, if not more fixated on it as we are.

[The Big Ben]

I have a couple of mouthpieces- a Helleberg (funnel) and a Bach 18 (bowl). I like the Helleberg best because of the sound. The Bach 18 plays fine but the sound sounds 'brighter'.

Could it be that the characteristics of the tuba are easily change with the mouthpiece? When I played trumpet all the time, I had one mouthpiece and that was it and most trumpet guys I knew did, too. We may not have been typical, though.

[jonesbrass]

I think a lot of it has to do with the variations in tubas, as well. Overall, the trombone and trumpet are far more grouped around an "average" instrument than tubas are. Then we have receiver differences, valve type differences, size differences, wrap differences, construction variables, etc. Let's face it, we're a wonderful mess.
In addition, it is more economical for trumpet players and trombonists to swap out parts for different situations or even buy another horn to suit a different situation. Most of the pro trumpet players (classical at least) have had in excess of 5 or 6 pro-quality instruments. Not many tuba players can afford that, so some of us switch mouthpieces to suit the gig we're playing.
As for me, I prefer to keep the rim exactly the same and change the cup and shank to suit the particular horn I'm playing. Unfortunately, the Doug Elliot setup I've used for about ten years isn't working out on my Willson 3050, so I've been "forced" to try to find something that works well. Currently I'm using that same Doug Elliot rim on a Loud LM-6 cup and backbore. An LM-3 should be on its way any day now, though . . . as well as a G&W Caver, in an effort to find the mouthpiece that matches both my sound concept and the horn best.

[windshieldbug]

Keep in mind that a "tuba" means that you have to cover a LOT of music... written for instruments from C bass to BBb contrabass. With lots of horns in odd wraps with lots of bores with 3,4,5, even 6 valves.

The only other players that cover a similar range of music are the trumpeters; and they're generally gearheads, anyway.

The horn player gets a double or even triple horn, the bone player MAY have stretch from alto to Bb tenor/Bb bass.

Ask a percussionist how many mallets they have sometime!

[circusboy]

Regarding tuba v. euph, I think it's also because most euphonia don't seem to have the intonation and other problems that the tuba has--and that the euph is simply easier to blow.

When I was playing euph, I bought one mpc that had been recommended to me, liked it and stuck with it--never a second thought.

With tuba, I find the horn so much more difficult to play that I'm always on the lookout for a mpc that will make it easier, more consistant, more in tune, the sound in my head, etc. Still haven't found it.

[Casey Tucker]

in my experience, trumpet players have always been the worst about equipment. i laugh every time i see the guys in my quintet. the trumpet guys live together and they always have new stuff including:
-high end gig bags/cases
-a PLETHORA of mpc's & carriers
-the latest tuners/metronomes
-the best cleaning supplies, and
-horns
as for the horn and trombone they rarely change. the only thing i see them invest in are recordings and dvd's. as for myself, i'm poor so since price dictates my purchases i don't get very many new things other than the occasional bottle of valve oil or piece of music. cheers!

-CT

[TubaBobH]

Thanks guys. Your responses were informative and interesting.

[RadDad2005]

I've played the Conn Helleberg 7B Gold plated since 1978. All my band tuba students use it (SP), even beginners, and I tell anyone that will listen to get them for their students. I guess I am fixated!

[Rick Denney]

I have frequently posted the advice that a beginning or returning player should get a standard mouthpiece of proven history, and learn the instrument using that that mouthpiece. That list of archetypes would include the Conn Helleberg and the Bach 18 (both of which have been copied many times). I might be tempted to add one of the Geibs, though the good copies are more expensive than either of the above. Maybe after several years, they will have progressed to the point where they have the tools to evaluate other possibilities.

It takes some progress on the instrument before the subtleties of changing mouthpieces can be exploited or even detected. I bought mouthpieces for a LONG time and could not tell whether they made any difference or not. It's really only been more recently that I've been able to hear those those differences.

And then, I give a mouthpiece at least a three-month trial, and then compare it with my previous mouthpiece, before deciding the change is permanent. So, even though I own a lot of mouthpieces, I have really made permanent changes quite rarely. The mouthpiece I use on my Miraphone is only the third in my history (17 years) with that tuba. The York Master is on its second mouthpiece, as is the Holton. The Yamaha F tuba is on its second (after the initial search), and the B&S is still on its first since I've owned it.

We expect a lot out of tubas, and many tubas deliver our expectations only imperfectly, no matter how good we might be as players. So, we try to tailor the tuba to specific objectives using the mouthpiece. This is all perfectly normal, and does not strike me as obsessive. Even Arnold Jacobs experimented quite a lot with mouthpieces. When I see double-reed players fiddling with their reeds (which they, of course, make themselves), I think that a tuba player owning a couple of dozen mouthpieces over as many years is probably not that pathological.

Rick "who sometimes learns by changing mouthpieces, even when the change is not permanent" Denney

[imperialbari]

According to my memory the reverse throat concept is anything but new in smaller brasses. I think that Kosicup (?) made double cup trumpet mouthpieces already around 1960. Shortly after 1980 I bought 2 or 3 Jettone trombone mouthpieces at a clearance sale in a music shop. Among these a Buddy Morrow model #1 with a funnel shaped 2nd cup.

15 or 16 years ago I reamed out the cup side of my Giardinelli J4 horn mouthpiece to move the narrowest point down the stem. In turn it of course became less narrow. Worked well on my 28D as 4th horn in Mahler’s 4th, which has a fairly low range especially in the 4th movement (wonderful symphony for low horn, as there are neither trombones nor a tuba).

I also did a bit of that process to my Denis Wick 4AY, but stopped because DW’s bronze material is rather hard to work on for getting a smooth surface. The result doesn’t look pretty, but it plays well on my B&H Imperial Brit style comp baritone, my fake serpent, my Kanstul G marching baritone, my Besson Westminster G bass trombone, my Kühnl & Hoyer helicon shaped valve trombone in low Eb, and probably some other stuff also. Most of these instruments really are too low for a small stem mouthpiece.

The reverse throat doesn’t spoil the upper range. I use the Giardinelly J4 also on my flugelhorns in Bb, B, and C.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[MaryAnn]

Before my embouchure matured, I jumped around with horn mouthpieces on a frequent basis. Peach is right; once I settled in on a piece that worked with my horn, that was that. If I ever lose it (Lawson) I'm in hot water because Lawson is out of business.

Did a recent change for my F tuba, to a Giardinelli 25. Very narrow cup, works much better for me; less tiring than essentially free-buzzing the high range into a cup that swallows my corners. I don't notice any negative effects. Klaus suggested I try a Wick 4 or 5, but I had the Giardinelli in hand.

MA

[TubaBobH]

fwiw, many of the new stainless steel models seem to employ reverse taper throats...

You've piqued my curiosity. Can you give the names of some stainless steel mpcs that seem to employ reverse taper throats? For example, I own two ss mpcs, the LM-7 and SS Kellyberg, and am curious if you believe either of those two employ reverse taper throats.

[Donn]

You've piqued my curiosity. Can you give the names of some stainless steel mpcs that seem to employ reverse taper throats?

I'm not he, and lacking his legendary discretion, I have no compunction about revealing that my GW Diablo appears to have a narrow, about a half inch long taper reamed into the throat from above. I'm too lazy to saw through all that steel to get a cross section, but it's very visible as the surface in that area reflects differently. Features like that in a brass mouthpiece might not be so conspicuous, after plating.

[Wyvern]

This makes me think of an orchestral workshop I attended earlier this year. The bass and 1st trombone both had a whole bag of mouthpieces and seemed to spend every break comparing and trying different ones. So even trombone players can be obsessed by mouthpieces

Tuba players are always seeking that one which will give that extra depth, breath, range, clarity, etc. I have wasted a fortune trying different models over the years, but have now settled on one (the PT-90) as a good fit for me in >95% of my playing (on both 2040/5 and Neptune) - so like to think I have completed my personal equipment quest (in both mouthpieces and tubas).

Best to find THE ONE for YOU and then just practice to improve, rather than always seeking equipment as means of improving.

[imperialbari]

Donn, I know for a fact, is equipped with a reverse taper.

Bloke, I don’t know how you obtained that very personal information. Neither did I know that you moonshined as maybe a dentist or a proctologist just to fully exclude any homologic assumptions, as I really don’t know whether Donn is m or f, hopefully not mf.

Please don’t be too specific in your reply!

K, who has acted as a midwife, but only in the veterinary sphere, when the “venturies" had too much taper

[Donn]

fully exclude any homologic assumptions, as I really don’t know whether Donn is m or f, hopefully not mf.

I'm sure further discussion of my reverse taper, which I'm not saying I have, would be quite off topic here and far from the interests of most readers, but just FYI that would be "m".

I can also report that this is the first appearance of the word "homologic" on the new Tubenet (and probably the old, though I can only guess without the "search old tubenet" option.) Let's not let it be the last.

For some on-topic content: I don't know all that many tuba players personally, but other than myself they all have few mouthpieces, usually one, and haven't really taken much interest in experimenting. It's kind of the converse of a fixation or obsession.

[imperialbari]

I can also report that this is the first appearance of the word "homologic" on the new Tubenet (and probably the old, though I can only guess without the "search old tubenet" option.) Let's not let it be the last.

Always at your service: homologic wasn’t even meant to mean homologic. It was a euphoniumism.

Going to grab my Yeo Signature to give my Eser - Gütersloh oval Kaiserbariton in C an aerophonic flush.

K

[Wyvern]

I can also report that this is the first appearance of the word "homologic" on the new Tubenet (and probably the old, though I can only guess without the "search old tubenet" option.)

You can still search the old TubeNet at http://www.chisham.com/tubabbs.html" target="_blank
I reference a lot!