Main tuning slide triggers

[Peach]

Seems like triggers on the main slide have been around for ages but have never really caught on. I include the Marzan upturned MTS design here.
Notably Kanstul seem to have adopted the idea and I think Thein mention them (and everyone knows they produce literally some tubas). I've seen pictures of a Gronitz F with a two-way trigger.
Brass banders here in the UK increasingly insist on MTS triggers. The Besson Prestige range have them; currently including Cornet, Tenor (Alto) Horn, and Euph. Probably just a matter of time before they bring out a Baritone with one. Not sure about tubas...

The Besson versions can only flatten the instrument but I see no reason why a trigger can't be made as a two-way (save the extra weight, complexity and cost!).
I see why some manufacturers may not want to add them as stock since it's a free admission of less-than-100% perfect intonation.

The obvious digit for a trigger on a front-valve tuba is the RH thumb - assuming it's not employed by a 5th valve?

Anyone have any experience or opinions?

[Peach]

I don't like to use the thumb for a tuning trigger. When the other 4 fingers are on valves you just don't have the leverage for precision tuning.

Fair point. Quite different to just bashing down the 5th valve I suppose. This would be doubly true if the trigger were two-way

[Tom]

Seems like triggers on the main slide have been around for ages but have never really caught on.

Anyone have any experience or opinions?

My experiences are with a tuning slide rod rather than a spring loaded trigger, but nonetheless...

When my Alexander 163 came to me, it was fitted with a t-handled main tuning slide rod (along with a set of monsterweights and some other "improvements" ). Before you say "well, duh...it's an Alexander...how the heck do you expect to play it without a tuning rod," consider the following:

The use of the tuning rod required a quick main slide which turned into a very loose and leaky main tuning slide. Once I had the main slide fixed (along with the horribly worn rotors from years or hard use), it became very clear that that this particular Alexander is a VERY fine example of an Alexander CC and that it plays exceptionally well in tune without slide pulling or alternate fingerings and with the sound.

At that point the tuning rod just got in the way and was causing me to "get lost" on the pitch because I still trying to use it to "tune," and didn't really need to at all. I discovered just how in the way it really was once I took it off (it was partially removable) and played the tuba without it. I eventually had it fully removed and haven't looked back.

That said, the idea of a two way trigger is interesting. I don't need one for what I have, but I can see how this would not be a bad idea for a top action tuba/euph in particular because of the difficulty in adjusting slides on the fly with that particular configuration.

[Peach]

....That said, the idea of a two way trigger is interesting. I don't need one for what I have, but I can see how this would not be a bad idea for a top action tuba/euph in particular because of the difficulty in adjusting slides on the fly with that particular configuration.

Could also work for any instrument requiring LH to operate valves. A two-way trigger would hold the main slide in a stock position for general use because of the two springs acting against one-another. That would save the player "getting lost" pitch-wise as you describe.

I actually own a two-way trigger bought from Gronitz for a project that never happened. I took a look at it again recently and was wondering about folks who've used them.

[cjk]

My first CC tuba had a self centering main tuning slide trigger. It needed it.

It was a T shaped rod like Tom described, but it also had a pair of springs.

The trigger itself worked fantastically.

My present instruments do not require such contraptions.

[Rick Denney]

I built tuning sticks on two tubas. One was a Cerveny with a sharp upper register, and so I only needed to lengthen the main slide in practice, and it didn't need to be spring-loaded in both directions. But it had a horizontal main slide, and I had to fabricate a bell-crank mechanism to turn the stick's motion 90 degrees. I attached it to the instrument using nylon ties, which prevented damage to the instrument, and that worked fine for a long time.

Then, on a Bb Vespro, the fifth-partial C and D was impossible flat. Pushing in the first slide wasn't enough, so I built a tuning stick for the main slide. It also had a horizontal slide, so I had to use a bell-crank design there, too. But it was turned around from the Cerveny so that pushing down on the stick would push the main slide in. I ran the control rod up under the paddles and brazed on a surplus Miraphone thumb ring (I had replaced the thumb ring on my Miraphone with an adjustable ring that I got back when Orpheus had Miraphone repair parts). The ring was adjacent to the first valve slide. So, when I rested my fingers on the first valve slide, my thumb rested in that ring, which allowed me to push in both the first valve and the main slide at the same time. It took some effort to get the main slide aligned well enough to work fast, but that was accomplished.

I have considered a tuning stick for several of my current tubas that all seem to play sharp in the upper register. But since they all do, I figure it's really my problem and not the tubas. Plus, I'm rarely asked to play in that register in band music, and in chamber music I use F tubas with which I don't have that problem. I do use some alternate fingerings on my Holton for the upper register, often playing 6th and 8th-partial stuff on the normally flat 7th partial to bring the pitch down. That's easier than tromboning slides.

Rick "content with adjusting just the first slide and occasionally the fourth these days" Denney

[sloan]

My recently-acquired Besson 3+1 EEb arrived with an aftermarket tuning stick. It was supposed to be operated by the LH thumb. It controlled the main tuning slide.

It had a few problems, for me:

a) the main tuning slide does not allow for very much movement (perhaps bloke can fabricate a fix for this for me?)

b) the thumb ring to fourth valve distance did not match the distance between my fingers (probably easily fixed).

c) I had enough trouble dealing with the (new to me) +1 valve that it just got in the way

So...I simply took off the stick and moved the nice limiters together to hold the slide in one place.

Now, the only problem is that I can't (conveniently) move the main tuning slide AT ALL.

This is the second time I've been motivated to remove a mechanism like this. My son's first euphonium was a school-owned King 2260. It had a 3rd (?) valve (spring loaded) kicker that had caused major problems. The most obvious problem was that the slide had NEVER been taken out and cleaned (doing so involved a lot of dissassembly) and so it was frozen in place (making the kicker less than useful...). So, I took it apart, put the parts in a plastic baggie, and took the horn to the shop with the firm instructions that the kicker was NOT to be re-attached. The Band Director was very happy to get the horn back at the end of the year in better condition that it was at the start - and didn't seem to care that there were extra parts in a plastic baggie.

So...back to my EEb - for me, with my lips and my ears, the ability to move the main tuning slide a half inch doesn't really help all that much. Should I:

a) apply heavy slide grease to hold it in one place and take apart the hardware?
b) re-attach the stick, bend it to fit my hand, and learn to love it?
c) have bloke re-engineer the whole thing so that you can actually use the "tuning slide" to tune.
d) leave it as is and continue to claim that "my horn was tuned at the factory"?
e) give up on 3+1, "compensated" tubas
F) The Princeton Band

[sloan]

Kenneth, how long is the 3rd slide? If the horn has good intonation overall, you could attach it on the 3rd slide to kick out for low F and E natural. It should be a fairly easy thing to get used to, especially as you would rarely use it. In fact, I've been "air-tubing" that for a while, even though I have no interest in a top valve horn.


It's been a while since I had my Eb's and I don't remember how much I had to pull for 13 and 123 and I've not really tried that on my army 187, but that would have to move enough to get used to fairly easily (no micro-putzing).

It's 3+1. 13 and 123 can be played 4 and 24. The downside, of course, is that the left hand is pretty much stuck in one place so "pulling" anything means constructing a thumb-operated mechanism.
I briefly considered treating it as a double horn (in Eb and Bb) and keeping the 4th (compensated) valve fixed one way or the other (nailing it DOWN would have been yet-another-trick allowing me to NOT learn Eb fingerings!), but I wasn't really serious about this.

The main tuning slide stick seems like a good idea - it's just that:

a) it's a bit clunky, and
b) there's not really very much push/pull available because the slide is so short.

In my hands (lips, mouthpiece, etc.), the entire horn is fairly sharp, so think in terms of PUSHing rather than PULLing. I have it set up right now so that there is virtually no more PULL left (I don't know what I'll do outdoors in the heat of summer). The good news is that the limiters attached to control the amount of push/pull do an excellent job of keeping the slide from falling out - otherwise this would be a real concern.

Notice that this is ANOTHER reason to consider lengthening the slide - but I haven't looked closely enough to know if this is feasible.

[sloan]

I knew that. I meant for LOW F and E (134, 1234).

Well, the good news is that the intended use for this Eb (for me) is in ensembles where there is also a contrabass available to handle those notes. When there is no other contrabass, then *I* bring a contrabass (King 2341 BBb) and leave the Eb at home.

Today, I played a total of 5 notes WRITTEN lower than the Bb below the staff - and none of them were longer than a quarter note. The Eb would have been just fine - but I had my King BBb so there were a few more notes actually PLAYED down there (the King also has a very convenient first valve to pull for anything lower than E - I don't recall any D-or-below, and most of the Eb's I played down there were...optional(?) (I don't recall seeing a single low E-nat in any of my folders, ever. I'm sure they exist in some pieces - but those pieces don't show up in my folders).

My Tuesday-night folder has exactly ONE low F in it - and the Besson nails it.

Interestingly, the two tubas differ by a fifth - but my practical range changes only by a third.
Every time I think I'm creating new headroom on the Eb, I go back to the BBb and find that my range has magically changed there, as well...

That would *seem* to argue for the EEb as my one and only tuba (it can cover the low notes that *I* need) and can go a bit higher.

The problem with this is...THE SOUND.... The King is just so much better sounding (and much easier to play). After an hour on the EEb, picking up the BBb is like (George Carlin voice here...) "going home".

All of which is to say....I'm not sure that *I* actually need a tuning slide trigger on this EEb - but I can imagine that someone else might want one.

[imperialbari]

Interestingly, the two tubas differ by a fifth - but my practical range changes only by a third.
Every time I think I'm creating new headroom on the Eb, I go back to the BBb and find that my range has magically changed there, as well....

Somebody please explain me what a fifth means among American low brass players.

My compensating Boosey F-tuba is a fifth above my compensating Besson BBb according to my musicological studies. According to the same musical frame of reference my Besson Eb compensating tuba is a fourth above the said BBb tuba. Usually I am reasonably in the know about compensating low brasses, but I may so far have been unattentive about the EEb compensating sub-contrabass tuba, which is implied in the quote. Photos will be most wellcome. This potentially will be a sensation.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[sloan]

Interestingly, the two tubas differ by a fifth - but my practical range changes only by a third.
Every time I think I'm creating new headroom on the Eb, I go back to the BBb and find that my range has magically changed there, as well....

Somebody please explain me what a fifth means among American low brass players.

My compensating Boosey F-tuba is a fifth above my compensating Besson BBb according to my musicological studies. According to the same musical frame of reference my Besson Eb compensating tuba is a fourth above the said BBb tuba. Usually I am reasonably in the know about compensating low brasses, but I may so far have been unattentive about the EEb compensating sub-contrabass tuba, which is implied in the quote. Photos will be most wellcome. This potentially will be a sensation.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

Did I mention the Eb was a bit sharp?

[Rick Denney]

Klaus man, you been ON the last few weeks. I dont' seem to remember you ever being funny in the past.

You just haven't gone far enough back. Klaus is a master of English irony disguised as troubles with English by one who speaks Danish, German, Faroese, and who knows what else. He even does it with a straight face.

Rick "remembering some of those early posts from the old, old Tubenet" Denney