composers: unintended consequences?

[windshieldbug]

Actually, the mute wasn't the worst thing I've had. I been dressed down SEVERELY in front of the orchestra for not playing a part. When I replied (in a respectful voice, because I have made a few boners in my time) that I couldn't even find it, I was treated to, "I wrote the G**D*** music, so I know what's in the parts. I'm not going to fall for that kind of B**S***!" So, I passed the part forword in desperation. It makes it's way to the podium, where the composer studies it, and says, "HMMM! I could swear I put it there!".

So, never to be one who lets things slide, and since it was near the holidays, in the break before the performance I inserted a card into the score at the appropriate place into the score that said "Merry F***ing Christmas from the G**D*** tuba section!"

When we got to that part in the performance, he looked over, and quietly tucked the card into his tux jacket pocket.

Sometimes it IS good to have tenure!

[Tubainsauga]

I had a piece call for stopped tuba (not muted, I checked)....

[imperialbari]

I had a piece call for stopped tuba (not muted, I checked)....

Just bring your laundry.

K

[windshieldbug]

I had a piece call for stopped tuba (not muted, I checked)....

So... do what they instructed. Stop playing!

[kontrabass]

Permit me to contribue my $0.02 as a composer (and performer)...

I can't defend the inane markings of some of my colleagues, and I try to be as conscientious as possible with regards to playability, BUT, as the Curnow story indicates, sometimes it just doesn't work the way you think it's going to.

Notation is a tricky thing, a bit like being a multilingual translator. The composition starts with an expressive idea that is conceived in an emotional language (the desired effect/experience/feeling of the piece), translated into a musical language (improvisations, sketches, themes, harmonies), translated again into a written language (the hardest part - refining into notated scores and parts), which is finally translated AGAIN by different people back into a musical language, with the hopes that the audience can then parse that musical language into the emotional language that the composer began with.

I speak the musical language better than I do the notated language. Every marking has a goal towards the big picture, emotional statement, effect, etc., but it doesn't always work. I get better and clearer with experience. But if it were possible to put in a written statement exactly what I wanted the musician to convey, then I wouldn't have to be writing it in music.

I've seen my share of bone-headed notation and I can't defend the arrogant composer who barks at the orchestra. But at the same time, I sometimes see performers ready to dismiss a work entirely after the sight of one inferior notation. I would, in those cases, advise a little bit of slack; ideas can sometimes get lost in translation. The performer is an active part in the creative process through their interpretation of notated music. A performer is an interpreter, not a robot. "Interpreter" is another word for "translator".

--
Rob Teehan

[The Jackson]

I do not understand why more composers do not use more concise markings (i.e. textual statements) in their notation. I think it would definitely be an improvement when compared to "Well, it LOOKS like they wanted this..." . Does an experienced composer want what's in their head to be shown but at the same time put very vague markings on the page? It just seems very strange to me that a composer does not utilize the page to its full extent. Does that make any sense?

[The Jackson]

I guess that definition was a bit too technical. What I'm trying to say is make more precise notes in the score.

I just bring that up because I have seen (in my extremely small amount of experience) a great deal of strange things regarding notation and I ask myself what the composer was wanting there. I figure that I can bring a more clear understanding to try to eliminate that confusion.

I understand and accept that my music can't be played exactly as I envision it, but I would still like to make the best effort I can.

[Tubainsauga]

Markings aside, the one thing that truly irritates when reading a new composers work (our orchestra just read a few student compositions) is the lack of proofreading for the individual parts. If the composer has put so much time into the work, how hard is it to look over all the parts to make sure all the rests actually line up with the score (and that the desired transpositions are indicated etc.)

[PWtuba]

Many composers are intentionally vague with their markings, the intention being that those aspects are up to the interpretation of the artist, and this is what makes that music particularly special to the performer/artist. I have never written a piece of music, but if I did I believe that I would use this approach. I would not want every performance of my piece to sound the same. When I perform pieces on the piano, I don't believe I have ever performed a piece the same way more than once.

[The Jackson]

PW:

I understand with what you are pointing out and fully agree that the interpretation by the performer is sometimes the main reason people pay attention to them. I just don't know how free the composer wants the performance to be, though. As I understand it, some were/are very strict in terms of interpretation of their written music.

[Stefan Kac]

One thing that has always particularly irked me in this respect is the application of "phrase markings" to wind and brass parts because it is not always clear whether or not this also indicates a slur. I always reserve slurs for their proper place, and use markings like "No Breath" (or simply "N.B.") and the comma (breath mark) to indicate where a phrase can and cannot be broken. I suspect (actually, I know) that string parts, where slurs indicate not to change the direction of the bow, are the source of this annoyance. They are also the source of the inexperienced orchestral composer putting two wind or brass parts on two separate staves in the same part (not all that much of an encumberance, really, but technically not correct).

One reason I am hesitant to use too much text in the score is because one cannot be sure that the intended recipient will speak one's same language. This may account for some of the awkward markings others are describing, though I'm sure it has many other causes.

I have recently experiemented with using only three dynamics in a piece: p (soft), m (medium), and f (loud). I'll be sure to report back once I've had a chance to perform one of these pieces.

[eupher61]

Research has shown, too, that in music of Holst, Vaughan Williams, Grainger, and other "early" band composers, aside from marches et al, the so-called "tenuto" mark, the line over or under the notehead, is actually intended as a loure' bow effect, a slight pause between notes.
No, not my research, but a former college BD who did his MM Conducting paper on such things. I don't have a copy of it any more, sadly.

He also had a terrific analysis of the Hindemith Symphony for Band. Great piece, and that analysis really helped make it a more enjoyable piece for us all.

[MaryAnn]

My best learning experience was a combination of a performance of an unmarked piece and then spending two hours with some people who were willing to painstakingly put the markings in that same piece, to get the players to do what I wanted. I learned to never release a piece unmarked because it was amazing how far from the concept of the composer that players would get. It was also amazing how close to the concept of the composer other players could get (the ones who helped me mark it up.) From that I learned to never, ever, assume that someone's concept of what is on the page will match my own concept, and that an unmarked piece may be almost unrecognizable from the composer's point of view. Since then I spend a huge amount of time putting expression marks in the little pieces I write.

In particular I've noticed a huge difference between how players of different instruments will interpret the same notation. String players, if there is a series of unmarked quarter notes, will play them legato. They won't detach them in any way unless there is a marking to do so. Brass players do the opposite; a string of unmarked quarter notes will be played detached, and will not be played legato unless there are markings to do so.

Composers who have no experience playing the different groups of instruments will likely get tripped up when putting markings into the music. And I still have no idea what woodwind players do, but I think it is more similar to string players than brass players.

MA

[Rick Denney]

Composers who have no experience playing the different groups of instruments will likely get tripped up when putting markings into the music. And I still have no idea what woodwind players do, but I think it is more similar to string players than brass players.

Doesn't seem that way to me. The brass section in the bands in which I've played don't usually get the "Don't be so pecky" complaint from the conductor, while the woodwinds seem to live in that mode.

Orchestral woodwind players are probably different than band woodwind players. And oboe players are probably different than saxophone players, etc. etc.

If I hear a certain way to play something in my head, I write it down. But I think Joe's point is the way in which I might choose do so.

We have a large vocabulary of mostly Italian words for describing the expressiveness of the music. Those are part of the standard notation. I would rather use those than try to notate the expression in each note, and I hope that's what Joe is getting at. Examples: "Dolce" is preferred to a pile of legato markings and crescendo/diminuendo pairs of markings to denote phrasing. "Marcato" is preferred to a pile of staccato markings and accents.

You can really tell the difference between brass and string players in tuba parts. I often play the string-bass part, because our conductor wants that part covered specifically. I see lots of arco and pizzicato markings, and in the tuba part, these will be notated as legato and staccato markings. And the results are dreadful. Pizzicato is at least as connected as arco, but with a different kind of attack. A good pizzicato will ring right through to the next note, but most tuba players just go "thump. thump. thump. thump." through the part. In fact, I often play them slurred, just providing a pulse of air to delineate the initial attack. The arco part might actually be less connected than the pizz part, if, for example, it's marked "marcato".

Rick "wishing some band players (and even some composers) had more orchestral awareness" Denney

[pierso20]

That was an awful lot of scratch (close to $30,000) for a multi movement piece that ended up being edited (and in spots composed) by the players themselves. Biggest issue throughout? Dynamics and phrasing. Hands down. So this very well known composer was a great tune-smith, great with harmonies, and a very good orchestrator, but not that great of a musician. We had to do that bit for him. He then had our parts taken up, copied our markings into his score and eventually published it with our markings and corrections, uncredited, of course.

(I'm sorry if someone made this point already.)

Could have make a friendly rebuttal???

Would it be safe to assume that this has been a "common practice" for hundreds of years? I tend to think that even the "greatest composers" have made many edits after compositions were "completed" and they heard them. So, with brand new pieces it's hard for any composer to conceptualize what they want on paper and often "hearing" it in person is a way to make these sort of corrections. I feel that this is sort of the purpose of collaborating and commissions. Most music doesn't come out perfect right away, which is why there are usually MANY editions of a piece. I have had many opportunities already to collaborate with well known composers on pieces they've written years ago, and STILL have us make changes. Music tends to evolve, or so I believe.

THOUGH, you did write "some parts composed"...so depending on the extent I think that this (along with instrument range errors) would be of greater issue than dynamics and phrasing. No composer is perfect, ever...especially when the music you receive is the
"first" printing.

(Also worth noting is that I also feel when a piece of commissioned, a credit already goes to the commissioning group.)

Friendly, yes?

[rocksanddirt]

Does that make any sense? I know what I want to say but am not certain that I am saying it effectively. Oh well. Time to go to the movies! It is Sunday afternoon! Ciao! (And thanks for the great music, Ken. I will try it out soon with my ensemble. We are up to nine players now!)

I think your description is very good that different composers might mean something different, and that the real challenge is 'what is musical'.