Please Explain the Ascending Valve

[Chuck Jackson]

I have read recently that French orchestral horn players for many years used a 3 valve instrument where the 3rd valve was an ascending valve. Can any one explain the concept, purpose, and usefulness of this set up? Seems to me that I remember a horn player saying that Dennis Brain used this set up on a French Besson Bb horn early in his career.

Chuck

[Chuck Jackson]

I took a hint form an earlier post to our resident college doormat and Googled my query. Very interesting concept for a valve to raise the tone 1 whole step. Now I have to sit and think what the fingerings would be for the standard horn in F with an ascending 3rd valve. That should keep me awake for a couple of nights. Yes, I know, I need to get out more.

What I found particularly interesting was link to a post here concerning the ascending valve(s) on the French Tuba in C. That would make the instrument even, to my mind, more nightmarish to play.


Intersting concept, one that, to my amazement, was in vogue in France until the late 60's. Must have had some credence or it would have died out sooner. This was a uniquely French invention and used almost exclusively in France with piston valves. Go Figure.

Chuck

[windshieldbug]

The French C tuba was a direct descendant of the ophicleide in C. They were both pitched at tenor C (a step above the trombone and euphonium Bb). What actually boggles the mind is not the C tenor pitch, but that the ophicleide ascended from there, and the tuba descended from there...

[imperialbari]

Never heard of an ascending valve on a French C tuba, where it wouldn’t have made much sense.

The French-made horns with ascending valves came as single F horns (said to have G main tubing) and as compensating doubles in Bb/F).

The benefit must be seen in the light of the horn starting out as an instrument changing between various crooks for different keys. Notation settled on F horn before 1900, when single horns were still the most common. Some high players chose singles in Bb, which were not always popular due to their sound. A prominent solo horn player in the Boston symphony chose to play a single G horn for most of his career.

The ascending single horn in F makes the bugles in F and G available. This valve arrangement implies the loss of written low Eb, Ab, G, and F#.

The double horn with an ascending valve only looses the low written Ab. The availability of the high C bugle makes some high range passages easier, but then exactly the high C bugle was not popular, because it missed out on the true horn sound.

The ascending double horns were and are made also by Paxman and Alexander. The former recommends that the doubles always have a stopping valve on both sides to ensure the playability of the low written Ab.

Dennis Brain started out on a piston single F horn with a normal valve layout. He was a master in high horn playing, which was kind of abused by contemporary composer, who wrote insanely high for him. His countermeasure was to change to an Alexander single Bb horn, which Paxman modified with adding an ascending valve to C and an F extension for the stopping valve. Not all connoisseurs found the change to the Alexander a benefit for his sound.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[Chuck Jackson]

Thank you Klaus for yet another elucidating explanation. I would like to hear one of the horns in action, although from what you said the sound was probably close to the modern instrument.

Can I infer from your commentary that Brain may have recorded his famous Mozart cycle on the Alexander instrument? He has the most amazing sound and concept of any brass player that has ever lived, so he could (and did if memory serves me well) sound good on a garden hose.

Now for the next question. Did the stopping valve produce the same sound as a hand stopped note? I see that this option is still popular on many of the triple and descant horns of Paxman and Alexander.

Chuck

[Ace]

And then, there is:

http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product ... 0/main.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

The secret of this design is the ascending valve. When played 'open' the trombone uses the full length of Bb tubing. When the lever is pressed the key of the instrument ascends a step, which eliminates the need for 6th and 7th slide positions.

[imperialbari]

A very few American players use the ascending doubles from Alexander and Paxman in pro orchestral work. As I read them, they are not out of the younger generations.

Brain recorded the Mozart cycle twice. The pre-1950 version was on the single piston F with Sawallisch. The post-1950 version was with Karajan and was done on the Alexander single Bb. I own the second on vinyl. The first is considered the better from point of horn sound.

Honestly: from my record I find Dennis Brain stronger in musicianship than in sound. It then must be said that in my youth one could hear from where the horn players came. Starting soft and too flat wobbling into pitch and dynamic told Sweden. Plain bad attacks in low dynamics told Denmark. Very dry sound told England including Brain. Fat and baritonelike told Germany with a tilt to its Eastern part. Saxophone sound told Russia if thin and France if thicker. And then there was the brave Hollywood horn known from Western movies.

Stopping valves give no special sound per se. Stopping the horn by closing of the bell shortens the tubing while the pinching sound is created. On F horns the raise of pitch is exactly a semitone, which makes the players transpose down a semitone to stay in pitch.

As the Bb horn is shorter, the pitch raise is around ¾ step. Hence all good Bb singles have a stopping valve (which in many cases offers a number of other features not told of here). American double horns traditionally have no stopping valves, as the stopping is supposed to happen on the F side. Some British and German doubles have stopping valves on both sides or only on the Bb side.

As the stopping valve on the F side of Paxman ascending double horns equal a semitone, the low Ab becomes available fingered S12. G and F# are played as pedals on the C bugle fingered 0 and 2 respectively.

On F descant horns stopping raises the pitch a whole step. That could be counteracted by transposition. But the stopping valve offers some useful fingering alternatives.

Ion Balu, 4th horn in the Memphis Symphony, builds interesting mutes. When I recently bought his large & small tuba mutes and his euphonium mute from bloke, I took the chance to also buy his newly invented stopping mute for my horns. Ion’s concept is to make the tubing of the stopping mute so long, that the pitch is taken back lower as much as the stopping function raises it. That way transposing and stopping valves become obsolete in stopping situations.

Klaus

[iiipopes]

Think of it this way: Take the 5th rotor of a CC tuba and put it in so it triggers the other way, so it's "on" instead of "off" until you trigger it. Then adjust the rest of the valve slides so you have effectively a BBb tuba. No, it won't be in perfect tune with itself, but for this purpose, play on it awhile anyway so you kind of get used to it in this configuration. Of course, on a BBb tuba, to play C, you actually add 4th valve and play the 3rd partial of the low F to get the note. But now you have a 5th valve that will shorten tubing instead of lengthening tubing in this configurations. So set up like this, when you trigger the 5th valve, it would actually shut off the valve tubing, making the overall tubing effective length shorter, and raising the pitch back up to CC, where you started.

Conventional valves are called "descending" valves because they add tubing to the mix and take the pitch down what ever number of half steps the valve is. So quite the opposite, an "ascending" valve shunts off a length of the tubing that is already in the loop, so to speak, so the pitch goes up. Obviously, having more than one ascending valve, as opposed to the conventional set of descending valves, could be problematic on a fixed instrument.

Yamaha has, or at least did have until recently, a student trombone that had an ascending trigger for C.

Hmm. I wonder: take a 186 like mine, with a short bell, shorten one inner bow slightly, and possibly the leadpipe. Add a 5th valve, but have it be an ascending half step in order to get B nat and...or do a "reverse cut" and reengineer a CC 186 as above to get a couple of solid, less stuffy notes...or, nah. The time that could end up being spent on such machinations would be much better spent practicing for the gig this weekend.

[tbn.al]

And then, there is:

http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/product ... 0/main.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

The secret of this design is the ascending valve. When played 'open' the trombone uses the full length of Bb tubing. When the lever is pressed the key of the instrument ascends a step, which eliminates the need for 6th and 7th slide positions.

I did not know this existed. How cool would it be to finally be able to play fast chromatics eliminating 6 and 7. The only downside is that you have to play through the valve all the time, which trombone players hate! But with the advent of the axial flow type valves that should not be a problem. This should shorten the slide by 10 inches. 10 inces is a lot in a crowded pit.

[ZNC Dandy]

The Miraphone BBb contrabass trombone has an ascending F valve.

[ZNC Dandy]

The Miraphone BBb contrabass trombone has an ascending F valve.

Huh?!?


Compare this Miraphone Bb/F contra-



with Doug Yeo's no valve Bb contra-




Visually, they are almost identical. The main tuning slide is also almost identical and the bell "location" seems to be the same (are the Miraphones copied off the Conn?!). Therefore, I can safely say that the Miraphone contra has a descending valve. NOW, if you rigged it so that the valve was OPEN by default it would be an ascending F/Bb, but then it'd have all the problems of a Bb/F tenor/bass with the same modification.
I seem to remember that Murray Crewe uses his Conn for the B-F gliss, and also Doug Yeo writing that he used to use his Conn in his symphony, so I bet it has a good 7th position (I cannot remember if the Miraphone I played has a good 7th, but I seem to remember hearing not). But that's not really relevant.



Al, I think that Yamaha tenor doesn't have a 7th position in either Bb OR C. But it might make a good jazzy tenor (first position G, pedal C and B,..)!

The one I played, when the valve was depressed, raised the pitch to a 12 ft. F. Its fundamental was an 18ft Bb.

[imperialbari]

The one I played, when the valve was depressed, raised the pitch to a 12 ft. F. Its fundamental was an 18ft Bb.

Would it be totally out of line to assume that that your embouchure didn’t allow you to play the 24’ pedal F?

The application of an ascending F valve on a BBb contrabass trombone makes no sense at all. The descending F valve isn’t there for range, but to allow for easier sequences of positions around the 2nd partial Bb.

Klaus

[iiipopes]

I think that Yamaha tenor doesn't have a 7th position in either Bb OR C. But it might make a good jazzy tenor (first position G, pedal C and B,..)!

You're right. And I found it: the Yamaha 350C.

Here's what Yammy says about it:

"Many children are fascinated by the trombone. It has a strong and pleasing tone which can slide smoothly from note to note, and it's visually exciting—it looks fun! But unlike most other instruments, the trombone cannot be played by small children. Modern trombones were designed for adults, and many would-be beginners just can't stretch their arms far enough to play all the slide positions. That's why we created the Yamaha 350C. This is a full-sized trombone, using the traditional slide positions, but it's much shorter in length. With the 350C, you can play a full scale without using the two farthest positions!"



And in addition to the lead jazz gigs, like another poster said: opera orchestra pits. Of course, it's lowest usable note with the short slide is only bottom line G, possibly Gb. I also like that it has a .500/.525 dual bore slide.

[ZNC Dandy]

The one I played, when the valve was depressed, raised the pitch to a 12 ft. F. Its fundamental was an 18ft Bb.

Would it be totally out of line to assume that that your embouchure didn’t allow you to play the 24’ pedal F?

The application of an ascending F valve on a BBb contrabass trombone makes no sense at all. The descending F valve isn’t there for range, but to allow for easier sequences of positions around the 2nd partial Bb.

Klaus

Makes perfect sense to me. Someone wanted it built that way, so it was made. But I can see your point. As far as my embrochure goes, I can play a 24' F.

[tclements]

I have a tuba here that Gronitz made for me. Id is a CC PCM, but when I push the 5th valve, it CUTS OUT tubing, putting the tuba in DD. Makes D open and C# 2nd valve.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

Thanks for the very interesting and thorough explanation, Dave. Welcome to the forum!