intonation - your tolerance limits

[Dean E]

Interesting topic.

First case: I snipped a couple of inches off the tuning slide of my Pan Am Eb peashooter after I put a tuner on it and saw how flat it played. Next case: I use a sousa tuning bit on my Wilson 3050 RZ CC, to correct for sharpness and to avoid having the tuning slide dangling loosely at the end of its (very short) travel. I was dissatisfied with intonation in both cases, but was able to make physical corrections. Is that what you're asking?

What are your thoughts about how slotting and intonation are related (not to highjack your new thread), Bloke?

Some horns do not easily slot but are capable of playing well in tune.

[Tubaguyry]

For me, "the sound" trumps everything. However, I wouldn't pay a huge amount of money for a horn that had "the sound" but required me to become a slide-pull slave. I would (and did), however, pay a small or intermediate amount for such a horn. My horn is a Weril CC. It has such a great sound for such a small horn. There are several little intonation things for which I have to compensate, but they are worth it given 1. The sound the horn produces, and 2. The price I paid. I'm still not a slide-pull slave, though. I can make the adjustments pretty easily with my embouchure. Bloke, you know of what I speak, since I bought this particular horn from you back in the fall of 2001 (it was the demo model you had on hand that I bought from you when I lived at Ft. Campbell).

FWIW

[Tubaguyry]

Some horns do not easily slot but are capable of playing well in tune.

That perfectly describes the school's Miraphone 186 CC that I play for large ensemble stuff.

I hate the sound of the thing, and it slots like crap. But MAN, that horn plays in tune!

[NDSPTuba]

This kind of falls into my recent concerns with my new tuba. I played a rehearsal last night with a local "invitation only" community band. A very good group of musicians. One of the reasons I was more worried about intonation of my new tuba. I didn't want to show up and stick out like some sort of hack. Luckily I had no trouble at all playing in tune with the group and had a great time. It has been since I left the military band since I have played with such a quality group. So I was very happy to find that the less than 10 cents of variance on certain notes to be very easy to deal with. I only remember having to think about one note in particular to put it where it needed to be with the group. I do love the sound of my 2341 though. Just the sound I was wanting.

[MikeS]

Maybe we need to define what constitutes a "fix" for intonation. On my Alexander 163 I play all the G's and D's 1-3 and all the Gflat's and Dflat's 1-2-3. They are dead on thusly fingered. The only slide pulling I ever have to do is down below low F since it's a four-valve. Using the above-mentioned alternate fingerings it's probably the best in tune tuba I've ever played. If this is a fix it's a lot less work than herding kittens. After a month or so it's no work at all.

One horn I had no tolerance for was a Willson euph I once owned. This horn had incredible response and wonderful sound but it flat wore me out chasing the F's around. I was also told that it was standard Willson practice to tune with the group and then pull your tuning slide out, since tuning Bflat was low on all of them. To top it off, several experienced folk maintained that it was a "good" Willson, since you could lip up the F in the staff enough that you didn't have to play it 4th and lip it down. I sold it for enough money to buy a Yamaha 321, with the 5th valve, and a cherry used BMW R100/7 motorcycle. The Yamaha does everything I want it to with no muss and no fuss andI've put 85,000 pleasant miles on the Beemer.

[awaters]

I think tuba players think more about intonation than many/most other orchestral players at least at the community orchestra and semi pro level. i particularly find the oboes and flutes to be big offenders(in the interest of prolonging my life span i do not confront them about this). The next group of offenders are "first" violins.

[Wyvern]

I guess I will accept within 20% for most notes to enable lipping into tune (I rarely slide pull). Maybe a bit more in the very low register where I think most people can hardly detect precise tuning. All my tubas I can play sufficiently in tune for my ears and seemingly to the satisfaction of a number of conductors I have played under (including some top professionals).

In recent times I have only once had big intonation problems and that was on a PT-3 I was trialing in a rehearsal, which of course as a result I did not purchase, although I rather liked it tone.

[tbn.al]

I have played trombone for 50 years. During that time I have become very intolerant of anything that gets me out of the center of the slot. You get spoiled when you are playing a giant tuning slide. I hate to lip a pitch, play a note in a different partial than the ones before and after, or do anything else that takes me away from the sound I want, right down the middle of the slot. I can lip 20+ cents each way but the horn makes a different sound. I can use alternate fingerings, but the horn makes a different sound. So I pull. I am getting very tired of pulling. I own an excellent 184 which doesn't get played anymore because of the constant 1st valve pulling. I can pick up the church's 3301 and worry about the thousand other musical things I need to be thinking about instead of pulling or lipping. The C in the staff is about 15 cents flat, but every other pitch in the normal range busts the green on the Korg. That is so liberating. Since you are not changing the embochure or the partial, the sound quality is even throughout. Last weekend I was priviledged to play some Wagner beside a wonderful Alex whose owner has to perform all kinds of magic to keep it reasonably in tune. I can safely say the sound was absolutely glorious. Maybe I just need to go back to the practice room.

[MartyNeilan]

Luckily, most normal people cant tell the difference if you are within 10 cents (I think its realy like 20 cents). And most players can lip the notes to within 10 cents of where they are suposted to be if they listen to the group.

Perhaps many people could not hear 10-20 cents off on an unaccompanied solo. HOWEVER, if someone is consistently playing 10-20 cents off in an ensemble, the tuba section will sound more like a group of dive bombers.

[Sally Larsen]

Intonation? I play with a community band...
Forget it! Don't whine about it later, either.
I've never been a slide puller... Our job is to lay down the pitch, keep the rhythm, and convert all those wheezily squeeks to tuba time.
Excuse me for the rant, but being able to lip it into tune is the nature of the beast.

[tbn.al]

I have played trombone for 50 years. ... You get spoiled when you are playing a giant tuning slide...

Having a really flexible embouchre is just one of those things that I assumed most brass players develop over the years - it was kind of an 'ah ha' moment for me to realize that probably that's not true.

It's not an issue of whether bone players can lip or not. They can, and have to while in 1st position.
The issue is rather that they don't have to lip pitches. When you lip a pitch slightly, you change the overtone series of that pitch slightly. Try to lip a pitch a half step and see what happens to the quality of sound. The same thing is happening when you lip it 20 cents, just less drastic. You can produce a far superior, more stable sound throughout entire range of the horn if you are always playing on a tube of exactly the right length to produce the desired pitch. This is the advantage bone players have, always having at their disposal the right tube length. I will quote from esteemed members of this forum, "Pull for tone, not for pitch." We all lip pitches a little without even being aware we are doing it. I have to agree with bloke, the OP. I have become very intolerant of horns that make me work too hard when there are examples out there that don't.

[Tubaryan12]

...I've played the same horn since I was 16.

I've always wondered about this. If we buzz a pitch to make the sound, aren't most pitch inconsistancies between horns mostly a function of your brain/face/ears being used to creating the pitch one way, and now being forced to do it a slightly differnt way when you change horns? If this theory is correct, with enough effort on a theoretical horn/mouthpiece that never changed, wouldn't your brain/face/ears make the corrections necessary to play all notes in tune?

[iiipopes]

I am intolerant to intonation problems. To me they are as bad as fingernails on a chalkboard. Yes, I can hear the difference between "pure" thirds in major chords as played by strings and "tempered" thirds on guitars, pianos, etc., that grate harsh brightness.

That said, I am very lucky. I play in ensembles that don't stress the limits of an instrument's range, and my 186 is pretty much dead on from low 4th valve F to 4th line F. Starting with 4th line F and going up, it tends to go flat due to my wider throat retrofit bell, in a similar manner that traditional flugels start having intonation issues up high.

The quirks: mid line D has to be 1+2. Open is unusably flat. But mid staff Db, C & B nat are right on -- go figure. first ledger line Eb can wobble, but that's usually if I let the rotors dry out and they start leaking.

G's & D's 1+2 are right on, not slightly sharp as you would imagine. I don't know why, I just enjoy. Occasionally, depending on the way the rest of the band is playing, I do have to pull 1 about 1/4 inch to match the group. But then the tuner goes red. Sod the tuner, if you're locked into the group.

low Eb 1+2+4 is right on. Low E nat and B nat 2+4 needs a bit of lipping down, but nothing is perfect. Depending on what shape I'm in, low G is either 1+2 or 3 alone.

And I like slotting to be moderately wide: not so tight you have to pull everything, but not so wide that valves start becoming elective. Then I can just set embouchure and blow the pitch to keep everything locked, and not fuss about it.

My Besson is great. It truly is as damn near perfect as intonation gets, and I am very willing to trade off the 4th valve, no pedals, and endure slight stuffiness on 1+3 C in order to get it. G's & D's are 3rd alone because of the comp loops. I can even finger the 7th partials top space G & Gb as 2 and 1 respectively, and they are in tune, not flat. Granted, I've lost a little bit of stability as a couple of solder joints are deteriorating, but I'll get them fixed eventually. And just like the famous "dent" on a particular F tuba talked about in the forum to get low C secure, I have a dent in the knuckle between the 1st and 2nd valve casings that makes mid line D perfect open. It was really bad, causing stuffiness. I had it removed by a great tech who did a great job. But then D went really flat. I took a ball peen hammer and ever so slightly tapped just enough dent back into it to get the pitch back up without making it so deep the stuffiness returned. But then again, I only paid $411 for it off eBay. So even if I had fubar'd it, no loss.

Sell them? Nah, for no more than I have in them, and that they are both from @ 1971, I wouldn't get anything out of them. They're much more a joy for me to play.

[Tubaryan12]

- Two or three tubas with the same intonation faults can (incorrectly) easily become an unintentional equivocation of two or three tuba players who believe they are playing "in tune".

ain't that the truth. For years, I have played my first line G very sharp. I'm still trying to retrain myself to play this note in tune. But this is what I'm talking about in my previous post. The more I play, the more "natural" the feel is to play this note in tune. It no longer feels (or sounds) like "lipping".

[tbn.al]

bloke "so it is my theory that when tuba players decide to take ownership of out-of-tune tubas for 'the sound', they don't get very much of 'the sound' if they force these tubas to play in-tune through 'lipping' or by adding several feet of cylindrical tubing"

Well said!

[windshieldbug]

intonation - your tolerance limits

About +- .05"

[imperialbari]

On trombone you are exact or often very much out, if you don’t know how to listen. Knowing how to play in tune with the slide sequences best allowing for a smooth musical line, somehow made me very much aware about alternative lengths of tubing for every note.

In consequence I am less reluctant than bloke towards using alternative fingerings on valved brasses. I prefer 4 valve instruments (or 3 valve instruments with triggers) because they allow me to treat 5th partial notes as 6th partial notes. 12 or 3 are very relevant alternatives for me.

Most of my mouthpieces have had their backbores opened, so that they slot less restricting. To strengthen my embouchure I train smooth lip glisses.

This said I of course prefer most notes on all of my instruments sitting in the right place. I want as many fourths and fifths as possible being in tune, with only a very few notes/intervals calling for special attention. One common practice is to give the 3rd slide a fixed pull to facilitate the fingerings 13 and 123 in the low range. If I at all can avoid it (which I most often can), I never do so, because many other intervals get skewed. The fingering 23 gives very bad leading notes, when the 3rd slide is pulled.

Lipping is not ideal, but with experience it can handle many problems. Also help in odd gimmicks. Once at a rehearsal I was very bored by the instructor of a big band. I was 1st with the bassbone sitting to my left. In a ballad I had a legato shift between two long notes, 1st position D to 2nd position E one step above. I made a very, very slow and lazy slide shift, which the bassbone player complained about afterwards.

“Did you hear any out of tune notes in between?”
“No.”
“What is then your problem with my slow slide movement?”

Of course not all instruments in my collection are my playing favourites, but a good deal are. When I hear some of my instruments being played better by others than by me, I don’t get envious. I see it as a challenge to exploit a potential, I hadn’t been aware of.

And I yet have to meet an instrument beyond some better electronic keyboards that came finally tuned out of the factory.

Klaus, still fighting to come back after a few years away from brasses

[iiipopes]

Speaking of legato slurred notes: that is also one great advantage of having a well designed tuba that has good, long slide pulls.

A couple of seasons ago in university community band, we had a piece that had a line of slurred C's, D's and G's right together, and all at piano dynamic level. Well, of course the other guys in the section tried to slur them 4th valve to 1+2, with more burbles than a rugby team at the bar after the match.

So when the conductor finally cut the section down to one person (not me) on the part for that motif, I sat there figuring out what could be done. So, at the next concert when the preferred player couldn't be there to play it, I was tapped out to play it. I shoved 3 back in from where I normally set it long to play 2+3 Gb and Db in tune; so I could play the G's and D's 3rd alone; pulled 1 to get the C's in tune 1+3; thereby I accomplished the slurs with only the 1st valve, and absolutely nailed the part. After this particular motif, after a few measures it shifts out of the modal context to an Eb, which was a quick push on 1st back to its normal position, and then the part goes elsewhere which gave me time to reset 3 back long for the rest of the piece. I'm lucky to have the recording for the performance, and it is pretty good, even if I do say so myself.

So, even though I prefer not to pull slides, and we all seem to not really care for alternate fingerings except when nothing else will do, I will not hesitate in a moment to do so in order to get the part accomplished as it needs to be.

[Alex C]

I think the bloke is talking about both the internal intonation of a particular instrument and matching to the players around you. Just because you cut the main tuning slide to get the horn to A=440 doesn't mean that you have addressed the internal intonation characteristics of your instrument.

I think the general standards for tuba intonation are about the same as for trumpet, violin, flute, etc. but the application of those standards is dependent upon the context of your performance. For instance, in playing with an "unpolished" community band there may be no way to maintain your standard.

On the other hand, our personal standards must be high to perform with better musicians. Bad pitch is not expected or tolerated in playing with better players, regardless of the instrument being used.

My tolerance for "fixing intonation" with fingering options is in line with the bloke, I don't have a lot of tolerance for it and don't like it. D in the staff sounds different played with 1-3 combination that it does 1st valve alone. The difference in tone bothers me as much as the bad intonation.

I don't mind moving a slide to play in tune but I don't want to move all of the slides regularly as some people I have seen must do. I think a main tuning slide adjustment is best, that eliminates the need for moving any valve slides.

But the bottom line is, I move some slides to play in tune but that is the extent of my tolerance.

Did I mention lipping a note in tune? nah, too difficult to explain.

[tubatom91]

I think that I can tolerate anything that is easily fixed. If you are playing a piece that requires you to play a quirky note for 10 measures consecutivly I don't think your conductor, nor your audience, would appreciate the note if you didn't fix it. But if it is insignifacant or easily fixed "I can't imagine that I'd have a problem with an individual horn.