Attracting an audience?

[BVD Press]

Over the weekend I attended 2 orchetsra concerts. 2 different orchestras in 2 separate parts of CT.

Good concerts! One thing that really struck me was the age of the audience. I don't mean this to offensive, but the the average age had to be in the 70's. I am in my 30's and felt very out of place. This did not make me too optimistic about the future of either orchestra.

I was wondering what orchestras or other groups around the country are doing to attract a younger audience? Basicially how are people getting younger people interested in classical music in hopes of sustaining an orchestra in the future?

Just curious

[tjs]

I was wondering what orchestras or other groups around the country are doing to attract a younger audience? Basicially how are people getting younger people interested in classical music in hopes of sustaining an orchestra in the future?

I've been playing in a community wind ensemble in the greater Boston area for about 5 years and joined their board of directors about 3 years ago. I can tell you that audience development has been one of the most consistent topics that has been taken up by the board over that time, and it is something that we've struggled with time and time again.

Late last year, we actually decided to take a more business-oriented approach towards the subject. In this area, we're fortunate enough to have something called Boston Volunteers for the Arts. Through BVA we've gotten hooked up with a couple of wonderful volunteers who have backgrounds in fundraising and marketing for non-profit organizations. They've helped us put together a plan to raise more money which we will eventually funnel into a marketing effort designed to increase our audience. We've sort of determined that the only way to really reach out to people and make our presence known is by have some serious $$$ to put behind a reasonably substantial PR effort. Of course, our situation is also complicated by the fact that we're a wind ensemble and not an orchestra, which automatically tunes out a large number of people who are interested in the classics that they've grown to know and love over the years.

Unfortunately, I can't speak to our results yet.. this is something we're sort of embarking on now. Hopefully in a year or two I'll be able to come back to this and talk about all the great things that have happened as a result of our efforts...

Tim

[AndyL]

I was impressed by the initiative shown by the Holland (MI) Symphony Orchestra in a family concert recently.

Orchestra members were teamed with several area elementary schools to familiarize fifth graders with HSO and specifically with a scheduled performance of Peer Gynt. Kids learned the story and made drawings of their impressions of Peer Gynt scenes.

Concert day arrives, and HSO starts early with an instrument petting zoo. When it's time to be seated, there's a special program for kids written in simple language with pictures kids are encouraged to color with a small package of crayons handed out with the program by the ushers.

When the Peer Gynt selections come up in the program, a huge screen is lowered above the orchestra and the drawings the kids made from the earlier teaming of schools and orchestra are projected as the music plays, to very pleasant effect. Perhaps needless to say, many of those kids "brought their parents" to this concert which was very well attended.

At the end of the Peer Gynt music/slide segment, the conductor faces the audience and thanks the children for their participation and asks for a round of applause for them (thunderous).

O.K. So now how do these kids feel about attending an orchestral concert? A pretty cool thing to do? My daughter enjoyed the concert, and she wasn't involved in the outreach project. I might add that to encourage parents to bring children (future audiences) to concerts, admission prices should reflect the orchestra's desire to have them attend. The community band I play in is perhaps the most extreme example I'm aware of: everyone 18 and under is admitted FREE.

So in answer to the original post, I'll recommend targeting and involving youth, and acknowledging their efforts and participation. To those inclined to discredit the notion due to finances, I recommend they look for foundations and grants that __specifically target children and education__. Some of these $$ may come from the same benefactors they have now......without conflict with existing funding (it happens).

Since I'm not affiliated with HSO in any way, I recommend you contact them directly if you have questions about their community outreach programs:

http://www.hollandsymphony.org/education-outreach.html

Best,
AndyL

[BVD Press]

The current crop of 70-somethings will be replaced by those who are 60-something now. If the hall was full, the orchestra will be okay.

There is the problem. The hall wasn't full for either concert. Actually not even close.

Yes the 60's will replace the 70's, but what about on down the line. I would say about 80% of the audience were in the 60-70 age group.

Like I said, I am 30 and felt completely out of place. I agree that it does not mean when "they go, the audience goes", but a nice mix in age groups might show how healthy the orchetsras will be in the future.

To me, this should be a serious concern to all who aspire to play in a "classical" professional group.

I did not mean to exclude Concert Bands and Wind Ensembles from this discussion.

[Roger Lewis]

How about San Francisco with Metallica? Yanni with the London whateveritwascalled orchestra? Doc Severinson as your soloist? This past weekend we worked with the Boston Brass and had a pretty good turn-out. Later this season we're doing 2 shows with Sandi Patty which should also draw a big crowd. Get the audience involved.

I know one orchestra I play with is looking at a "ride along" program. A raffle will be held for an audience member to actually sit next to you on stage (volunteers only for the orchestra player) and actually get to see what you go through when playing. People think what we do is simple. Let them get up close to see how hard we're actually working. They also get to be seen on stage by their friends - it will encourage the friends to come as well.

Just my ramblings.

[Chuck(G)]

A couple of years ago, when Harth-Bedoya was directing Eugene, he scheduled a program of tango music, complete with dancers. It drew gobs of young people and not the usual blue/white haired crowd. Both the matinee and the regular evening concert sold out quickly.

I recall that the university-affiliated critic panned it in his column in our local fishwrapper.

[Rick Denney]

The current crop of 70-somethings will be replaced by those who are 60-something now. If the hall was full, the orchestra will be okay. If they can't draw enough of a crowd, then maybe they have a problem. Certainly we can't assume the health of the classical music industry, but just because the audience was older doesn't mean when they go, the audience goes. If I had the time and money, I would go to orchestra concerts too. Maybe when I'm 70 I won't have to work so much.

Until your last line, you were right on the mark. Nobody in power can make people want to appreciate art, no matter how much money they feed into whatever art form they think is important (and there are plenty besides classical music that are also wanting for support and just as worthy). And the sort of general earned wealth that is the target of those you do not support is more likely to help orchestras than support from government programs. If you want to argue this point, I'll see you over in Politics, heh, heh.

But I absolutely agree that we should not worry about older crowds. Classical music as performed these days is not the sort of music that appeals to younger folks, and the cost of most professional orchestra concerts (and the etiquette demanded of those who attend) is not consistent with many who are raising families. But as people get older, their tastes change and the resources increase, making orchestras both more desireable and also more affordable.

I'll bet that symphony patrons of 50 years ago were either 1.) trying to impress other socialites of their social credentials and sophistication, or 2.) were in their 60's and 70's. We've seen losses in the first crowd, but they were always the ones who left at intermission anyway. In contrast, more older people are more well-to-do now than in the past, and classical music can now be enjoyed by those in the middle class rather than by socialites. I think audiences now are broader than they were. That doesn't mean orchestras aren't in pain because of the loss of big contributions from the social elite, of course, but that's another story.

Most of the better movies these days have good orchestral music in their scores, and that brings me a lot of hope. The reason film makers use this music is because of its broad tonal palette and ability to support a variety of story elements. Thus, the sound of symphony orchestras (even when they are faked, as with a lot of television) is still very much a part of the common experience.

Now, I think one thing orchestras cold lose is that rigid etiquette structure that makes one's first concert attendance have a high probability of humiliation (i.e., being the only one to clap between movements, or being glared at for not wearing the proper attire, etc.).

Rick "usually agreeing with Bill when the subject isn't politics" Denney

[Leland]

I'll bet that symphony patrons of 50 years ago were .... 2.) were in their 60's and 70's.

I've always wondered if that's the case. I'm far too young to know any differently, though.

I understand that the audiences have "traditionally" been older, and the question is whether the current 40-somethings will be filling their places.

(2-1/2 year old article.. lol)
http://www.startribune.com/stories/1646/2880675.html

I know one orchestra I play with is looking at a "ride along" program.

"Hey, Bob, did you see the tuba player I was sitting next to start falling asleep during the first three movements of the Berlioz?"


That would be pretty cool, though. Hopefully, as players, we enjoy what we're hearing from our seats, and it would be a kick to have someone right there experiencing it for themselves.

[Stefan]

The point was made a few posts up that many younger people don't enjoy classical music. That is where the problem is. You can put tons of money into marketing to attract a younger crowd. When you convince them to come to the concert, they remember that they don't like classical music and they don't go back.

So, the solution is to get younger people to like classical music - not trick them into going. I say it needs to start in elementary and middle school. The teacher comes up with a way to get kids to appreciate the music. Then the kids want to go to the local symphony concert. Then, you have the next stumbling block - getting the parents (who have no interest in going to an orchestra concert) to take them.

My plan is a long term plan, because these kids who now appreciate classical music will have to have there own kids before it really takes effect. Then, not only do you have the schools teaching this amazing new curriculum, but the parents are supporting it at home and want their kids to appreciate it. After a while, you have generation after generation of people of all ages going to concerts. Certainly, there will be some parents in the first generation of students who will support the idea. But I really think it will be best when both the schools and the parents are encouraging and teaching classical music.

Stefan

[MaryAnn]

Nobody in power can make people want to appreciate art, no matter how much money <snip>

I'll bet that symphony patrons of 50 years ago were <snip>

Now, I think one thing orchestras cold lose is that rigid etiquette structure that makes one's first concert attendance have a high probability of humiliation (i.e., being the only one to clap between movements, or being glared at for not wearing the proper attire, etc.).

Rick "usually agreeing with Bill when the subject isn't politics" Denney

Well, I usually agree with Bill on politics, but I'll leave that to the Politics forum which I have not visited all that much because it seems that I always end up insulting someone. But I digress.

I'm "akshually" going to a concert this Thursday, after both the tuba player and the 3rd horn bugged me to listen to Mahler 7. I rarely attend TSO concerts, because they are on Thursday and Friday evenings, and I usually have rehearsals those nights. And when they start the Sunday matinees, well, I don't want to lose my one free day. So if I make it to retirement without getting fired and having to work at McDonald's for the rest of my life...I expect I'll go to more concerts.

50 years ago my parents were attending symphony concerts, and a few years after that taking me with them. It was not a socialite thing but love of music and educate the kids thing.

As for etiquette....the one thing that just bugs the H out of me is people just talking away during a classical concert, as if the TV were on or something. I not only glare at them but actually tell them to shut up, less and less politely if they keep talking. I find it unbelievable the lack of courtesy that abounds in concert halls. I'm probably more sensitive to audible interrupts than most (including rustling programs, crinkling candy wrappers, etc) but I still find audible talking inexcusable.

MA

[brianf]

This is probably the most important discussion going on with every orchestra in the world. It seems no one has an answer, there are those who have tried gimmiks, variations of pop concerts and everything else, some successful, others not.

Considering the fact that this board has people of differnent ages, pro players who have been in the business for years to beginners. Let's concentrate on the students here - these are individuals that attend concerts and have received the message. Let's hear from you - when, how, from whom did you become interested in classical music?

Could be interesting!

[Ames0325]

Let's concentrate on the students here - these are individuals that attend concerts and have received the message. Let's hear from you - when, how, from whom did you become interested in classical music?

Well...I guess I was to a certain extent born into. My family is pretty musical and often listen to classical music. I have'nt had the opportunity to attend many concerts due both to financial and locational issues. But to be honest I didn't really start to enjoy classical music until high school. It was then that I discovered the music of greats such as Tchaichovsky, Murgovsky, Haydn, Stravinsky, Rachmaninoff, Barber and many others because to honest I've never been much of a fan Mozart or some of the other classical era composers. Their music always has ( probably always will) seemed dry-- lacking in emotion-- and over seasoned-- to much ornamentation and not enough emotion. Grieg is one my most favorite composers and though his music is excellent I would probably attribute at least some of my fondness for his music to a tape I listened to as a little girl that told stories and guided imaginary games. My favorite song on this tape was In the Hall of The Mountain King. I remember tramping through the house with my sisters to this tune as we pretended to climb to the Hall of the Mountain King.
So I would have to agree start interesting kids in classical music when they are young. and also make it fun don;t just paly Mozart Bach and Beethoven which is all most kids will ever hear because frankly alot of this music IMHO is BORING!!!

Amy

[Rick Denney]

So, the solution is to get younger people to like classical music - not trick them into going.

How are you going to do that without tricking them? Classical music does not have the excitement (to young ears) or dynamic range (i.e., loudness) to compete with other forms of musical entertainment. Cello versus electric guitar? Please.

16-year-olds love fast cars, painted red, especially if they think they will give them a better chance of attracting girls. If they can play electric guitar, they are that much further along. How will classical music, especially if it is presented by teachers--the ultimate kiss of death in defining what's cool--compete with that? It's not until they grow up that they realize the red TransAm does nothing but drive up insurance rates and get them tickets, and the long hair that attracted teenage chicks is now turning gray and making them look a little silly. When they come to that realization (and some, of course, never do), they will start to appreciate classical music as potential competition to electric guitars.

There are exceptions, of course, but we weren't talking about them. We are talking TO them, heh, heh. We ARE the exceptions.

So, you don't teach them about music to make them like it. That's an impossibility. You teach them about music for the same reason you teach them about English, history, government, and math. You teach them because the objective of teaching is to be educated, and educated people know at least something about music.

We do this to ourselves by making music a competitive sport. We measure band directors in schools by their competition results, and band directors are thus incentivized to drill contest literature instead of teaching about music. I learned far more about music literature in an elementary-level after-school "music appreciation course" than I did in band programs. I went because my (non-musical, as it happens) parents demonstrated that doing well in it would make them proud. And I learned more still from a collection of orchestral excerpts bought for me by my parents as a supplement to band.

What English teacher ever had to worry about contests? When we start putting music curricula together like real academic courses, people will learn more about music instead of treating band like Football for Fat People. It also means we'll have to give some low grades for poor academic performance (and not just for not showing up), and not too many band directors are willing to go there. We reap what we sow.

Rick "who thinks we should never have let music become a sport" Denney

[Stefan]

Rick

I'm afraid I have to disagree in most of your post. For everything I will say, I am refering to the middle school level - primarily with band and orchestra students.

How are you going to do that without tricking them? Classical music does not have the excitement (to young ears) or dynamic range (i.e., loudness) to compete with other forms of musical entertainment. Cello versus electric guitar? Please.

I don't think you give kids enough credit. The way I do it is to play music for them. I can't put a Bruckner symphony on and tell them to listen. I have to play short pieces of music (or excerpts) which have some meaning to the student. Just the other day I played a fine recording of a Merle Isaac orchestra piece for my 6th grade orchestra. It so happens that they are rehearsing the piece for their upcoming concert. They listened with absolute attention and many had this look of wonder (because this college level group was so much better then them ) Several of the students asked me at the end where they could get the cd.

With my 8th grade orchestra I played the Bouree from Handel's Fireworks Music to demonstrate the Baroque style of Fortspinnung. We are currently working on an arrangement of Queen of Sheba and they could hear the similarity in style. Then I played a recording of their arrangement which they enjoyed.

With band, it is that time of year that I play Ghost Train and talk about program music. They always want to play it after they hear it. I play all sorts of recording throughout the year.

So, you don't teach them about music to make them like it. That's an impossibility

If you teach kids to understand it, there is a better chance that they will like it. Certainly not impossible. Even when I taught general music, kids liked what they heard.

When we start putting music curricula together like real academic courses, people will learn more about music instead of treating band like Football for Fat People. It also means we'll have to give some low grades for poor academic performance (and not just for not showing up), and not too many band directors are willing to go there

Perhaps I am teaching in an unusual place, but my curicullum for band and orchestra is far more then just performance. I am not going to get into the details, but history (which IMO includes listening to music) is a big part of it. All the music teachers in my school have standards for grading. Yes, kids do earn poor grades in band and orchestra.

I realize I am talking about a select few students - actually, about 450-500 band and orchestra students in my school. Surely it's easier to get students who already have an interest in band and orchestra to appreciate music. But I think if you know what you are doing, and you can make the music meaningful, "cello vs. guitar" does not have to be an issue.

Stefan

[winston]

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[Dan Castillo]

I agree with Rick Denney.

A typical young person has a lot going on in their life. We young'uns live in a fast-paced society that actually encourages us to be stressed out. If you're not busy with something all the time, you're doing something wrong. I bet a lot of young people just don't have time for classical music. I don't really see that as an impending disaster. Since I'm about x number of years away from retirement, I can't really say this for sure....but I think retired people have a lot more time to enjoy these things than your average teenager.

Also, as people get older, their values change. Since a 60 year old has about 40 more years of life experience than a 20 year old, he/she probably has more appreciation for things of "higher value" and "deeper meaning"....like classical music.

I'm not suggesting we stop the effort to bring in young people, just don't be surprised that they're not all flocking to the symphony concert on Saturday night. What I think would be a great idea is finding a way to draw in 30, 40, and 50 somethings. These should be the ones who will fill concert halls for the next 30 years.

[Rick Denney]

Rick

I'm afraid I have to disagree in most of your post. For everything I will say, I am refering to the middle school level - primarily with band and orchestra students.

You aren't disagreeing with me--you just didn't read far enough.

The kids in your band and orchestra programs, if you are teaching them well (a big if in lots of places), are not the problem.

Concert-goers are often not former members of school bands and orchestras. They are just people. The kids who are not in band and orchestra are the ones you won't be able to reach with whatever you do in the band room. But they are the ones who will form future audiences.

But I can tell you for sure that band kids are not considered cool, no matter what you perform in front of them. The kids who play electric guitar and drums are the ones who are considered cool. It's not until they grow up that coolness becomes less important to them.

I was actually agreeing with you that you will never make orchestra music and concerts seem cool to schoolkids. But I was going further that making them like it is like making them like their peas. You may be able to make your kids eat their peas, but you can't make them like it. All you can do it put it in front of them so that they have a chance to find out what they like. That's why music programs should be as much about literature as about grammar and performance.

For most kids, orchestral music is like eating peas. Appreciation comes with age and maturity.

Rick "who hated peas as a kid but who eats them now" Denney

[Stefan]

Rick

I am just totally lost with your posts. Maybe I teach in an unusual area (not really). But my students are certainly not considered uncool among the school population. In fact, most of my students over the years have been some of the most popular in school. Certainly there are exceptions - but they are the vast minority. I have personally seen how my students interact with others who are not in band/orchestra. Quite often I see non band or orchestra students asking what's in their case. The student answers and the reaction has never been one of uncoolness or ridicule. Many of these kids are freinds with each other.

Also, I am wondering how you know that most concert goers were not a part of their school's music program? Was there a survey somewhere?

Stefan

[Rick Denney]

I have personally seen how my students interact with others who are not in band/orchestra. Quite often I see non band or orchestra students asking what's in their case. The student answers and the reaction has never been one of uncoolness or ridicule. Many of these kids are freinds with each other.

Also, I am wondering how you know that most concert goers were not a part of their school's music program? Was there a survey somewhere?

Hey, I didn't say they were hated, or that people wouldn't be their friends, or even that band members could not also be cool. What I said was playing in band (except for the rock-band instruments) was not cool. Thus, if they are cool, it is for other reasons (long hair, red TransAm--whatever). People don't join band to be cool, and being cool is Motivation Number 1 for adolescents. Remember that being cool is not an award bestowed by others (except for the truly cool), it's a self-perception borne mostly of delusion.

I based my statement about concert-goers on general experience as a concert-goer. 1.) the people I have known who were also concert-goers are for the most part NOT graduates of school music programs, though many had some sort of a general music course as part of their education (not the same as being in band for 6 or 7 years). 2.) If orchestras are going to thrive, we will NEED more audience than those who are motivated enough by music to join band, even though it is not cool. The trick is motivating people who weren't in band. Treating music as a general academic course is one way to raise awareness on the part of those not in band, particularly if it's required so that the cool kids don't perceive themselves as being uncool by attending. This sort of academic approach to music (for non-musicians) is more common in high-end private schools where the definition of being educated is a little less connected to job training.

Rick "who hopes you aren't taking this definitely uncool band geek too seriously" Denney

[Stefan]

Rather than not responding anymore - insinuating a lack of interest - I will just say that I have nothing more to add.

Stefan