intonation: an out-of-the-box solution

[imperialbari]

And those not quite sure about which of these valves to apply in a given pitch situation of course could press both for the safe bet solution.

K

Ps: Will these rotors have a progressive bore?

[imperialbari]

Even if I don’t own such horn yet, I am aware of an instrument with a close, but not as versatile, variant of your idea: The French compensating French horns with an ascending 3rd valve.

The 3rd valve loop has the extension of a 1st valve of a C main bugle. The 1st valve has the extension of a 1st valve for a Bb main bugle, that is: a bit longer. If an open note on the Bb side of such horn comes out sharp, you will be better off fingering it 13.

As for wishing extreme exactness of tube length on a conical low brass instrument, then I think it is less critical for good intonation than on a trombone.

It may be known, that I am in favour of the Blaikley compensating system for low brasses. I don’t have all permutations of pitch and # of valves, yet I have 5 samples.

Boosey/B&H/Besson hardly have used the exact same tooling from 1923 through 1999. Still the dimensions of the valve blocks on my older Boosey F and my newer Besson 981 Eb have strikingly similar proportions. The 1st valve slides don’t have the exact same alignment of their branches, but from the bore they would be exchangeable.

Some smart poster here once wrote that the problem of cutting an Eb comper to an F comper would be the cutting of the small 2nd piston comp loop. That of course was bovine manure. Yet I had expected the 3rd piston comp loop to be a tiny bit shorter, as the cutting here would be easy due to the slide in that loop. No, those loops are similar on the F and the Eb. And that fraction of whatever measuring unit doesn’t matter at all. Changing that loop on the F-based-on-Eb-model wouldn’t have been worth the effort.

It strikes me that we already know the off-length valve slides in brasses.

On my 5 valve single Bb horn the stopping valve lowers the main bugle roughly ¾ of a whole step. It has specific applications when playing stopped notes. But where it comes in real handy is in the range right over the pedal. It is useable wherever the 2nd slide is too short and the 1st slide is too long. We don’t lip too much on horns, but then we can do some fine-tuning with the bell hand.

On tubas the 5th slide with a long whole step works precisely only with the 15 fingering. In its other applications it isn’t exact, but there it works like the tubing to be applied, when the 1st slide is too short and the 3rd too long.

I more or less consider the opening of this thread one of bloke’s intelligent jokes, a genre I highly enjoy. When my lungs had become so bad, that I had to retire as a schoolteacher, my doctor ordered me to take up my playing again. Very often playing the bassbone was insanely frustrating, so I bought my 26K just for the daily warm-up, so that the lungs could move some air. Definitely not for its fine intonation in all key.

When health and money improved, I wanted a better tuba. Very cynically I set up a Dr. Young type spreadsheet comparing the low range intonation discrepancies of an F 6 valve B&S Symfonie and the Besson 981/982/983 Eb variants. Only the 983 had the left hand free to move slides. The spreadsheet told the B&S most wrong, as it had fewer theoretically precise notes.

However, bloke has come up with a much better solution in real life, than in this thread: the addition of a slide trigger to the 5th valve of his F Symfonie. The only problem I can tell with that set-up is the high amount of burning barns, when that tuba is applied to school concerts.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Joe,
I feel my strength is reminding people of the obvious.
You can't pull slides or use low note fingerings up high (like my big brass horn) at "flight of the bumble bee” speeds.
We need better horns!
I'm being hypocritical in saying this, but
Given the choice between usable intonation with "the sound” and
Great intonation and fair sound, I’ll take the sound!
I've always figured I'd let other people design tubas for me. The horns I've build are a testament to divine intervention - I haven’t a clue how they came out so well.

Good to read you, Brian!

I profoundly admire people carrying out transparent thinking in real life products.

Klaus

[The Jackson]

How could this system be implemented? Say that a brand new tuba was being made with this system, how would they be arranged? Would all the valves be inline like how many are today, or what? In any case, a very interesting idea!

[cjk]

Say you have a tuba with two main tuning slides like the HB2.

You devise one trigger to push one of the main tuning slides out.
You devise another trigger to push the other main tuning slide in.

You've ended up doing the same thing, but you've used less materials, right??

Or, I suppose one could construct a double spring main tuning slide trigger like a Cerveny piggy I used to know....

You'd still be mashing buttons more or less.

[Uncle Buck]

Why don't you just set a price for the modification and see if you get any takers?

[windshieldbug]

I still like Fred Marzan's out-of-the-box solution.

When you expect to make slight adjustments on an easy-to-reach tuning slide you're only moving ONE slide, not 3, 4 , 5... If the pitch changes as the horn/orchestra warm up, no problem. If the mouthpiece you like has odd side-effects, no problem. Root, third, fifth, seventh, thirteenth, no problem. Just, pure, equal-tempered, no problem. Piano backup or Symphony, no problem. Venting issues? Since it's the tuning slide which is open on one end, no problem. Overtone series problems (which, unfortunately, you can't solve with physics... ) no problem.

No added cost, 4 valves are fine. Ya gots ears, like trombone players, USE EM! No problem!

[imperialbari]

OK excellent point so how would you propose to tweak the length or our horns at
"hemidemisemiquavers", etc.? I’ve always liked the idea of having my left hand free to turn pages, pick my nose, and make obscene gestures at the saxophones.
Since I'm not used to a fifth valve I would propose a lever above the thumb and one below the thumb so you could make the adjustments with the right thumb, but now how would one ever be able to work the fifth valve (If one is still needed)?
How about a palm key?
oh oh I know ………we'll just tell people were playing in the style called calliope bass!!

Brian, I have some understanding for your approach to the saxes. What about a tool applicable as a tuning modifier and a sax-pad-roaster?

Just tune your tuba slightly flat, and bring your largest blowtorch.

Isn’t that transparent thinking?

Klaus

[windshieldbug]

...and, having played a Marzan CC (where the out-the-top main slide is pulled 1-1/2" for A=440 tuning), I doubt that pushing it in that available 1-1/2" or pulling it out the other available 2" would fix either that seriously-flat 1-2-3-4 or seriously-sharp 1-3-4 low Eb fingering on a 4-valve CC tuba.

You know, the 4th slide was built to use multiple intervals, and I'd rather switch one slide than add the complication of blowing through 2 more valves, if I knew in advance...

(but your estimate of where 440 is on that tuning slide is right on the money)

[windshieldbug]

Actually, it's the same two slides you use (and thus always have with you), they're just set up like some of those old High/Low pitch loops were.

[The Jackson]

I'm still thinking about putting a push-rod on my Alex....

RC

I think the main slide rod is one of the best tuning solutions. You don't have to worry about keeping the valve pressed down and, if you're "starting point" is in the middle of the slide, you can easily bring any pitch up and down (maybe with exception to the low Db if you have a 4v C).

I'm not loving pulling #1 for a low F on my 4v YCB621, so I might be thinking of one of these, too.

[The Jackson]

Yeah, I have tried 1+2+4, but that one is way flat (3+4, too). The biggest reason I don't like pulling/pushing my 1st and 3rd slides is because the owner before me using steel wool or something and ground up some of the slide. I assume they ground up where the slide was "set" for them, so it was for the same purpose that people make the little jigs. The fourth valve slide could be an opportunity, but even after I lubed it, it was still gritty and not smooth. The main slide, though, is just fine.

On the 186 Bb I had for a while, I easily got the low Eb with 1+4 and some pull of the first slide. I was lucky enough to have a brand-new horn, though!

[Rick Denney]

imagine two additional "tuning rotors"

Didn't you say you found the use of alternate valve fingerings intolerable?

Rick "wondering what 1-2-7 is if it's not an alternate of 1-2" Denney

[imperialbari]

RD again displays the lack of an important component of true R&D: analysis.

Most cunning TubeNet readers have looked through bloke’s limitations. His many postings are just text assignments in his basic school programme for slow learners.

Not even bloke counts himself a great trombonist, which clearly is displayed in his attitude to tuning: don’t move slides, cut them or augment them (paraphrased quote from bloke).

As he doesn’t spontaneously think in slide lengths, he doesn’t spontaneously do re-fingering with his up to 6 valves, which takes too hands. Quite a challenge for a slow learner.

But then he has his bright moments. So now he wants to reduce his spontaneity range to two valves. Either or. Or both for the tough situations. After all he is a nice fellow taking advice from his slightly brighter classmate.

K

[Rick Denney]

Surely this is a troll...(??)

What makes you think that?

I once described my C tuba. It's a Holton, but it has major intonation quirks. In fact, just about every note is severely out of tune, and I have to play alternative fingerings on all the notes. For example, I find that if I play the C using the fourth valve instead of open, it comes out very close to correct. And if I play the dreaded third-partial G on the fourth partial using 1-2, it seems to work just fine. I was willing to put in the practice necessary to learn all those alternate fingerings to make my CC 345 work for me. You know how those Holtons are.

That was a troll, too.

Rick "not bothered by alternate fingerings, if the tuba sounds and plays as it should using them" Denney