Might be a stupid question but

[Dan Schultz]

..... But what I have never understood, is why is the USA you start players on BBb - the biggest and most difficult to handle? Starting on Eb as we do in the UK..... makes far more sense

Back when I began playing tuba, starting on Eb here in the US was pretty common. That was in 1956.

[Biggs]

You know, I hear this cr@p from the college kids that come home every summer and play with our municipal band: "Hey, man, you're out of tune on that Gb. or Db."

Guess what, guys, it's a Bb band. Bring your CC tuba to orchestra.

And by the way, try watching the original version of Disney's "Fantasia." Whoever that tubist was, he was playing a SOUSAPHONE." (at least that's what they show on the film.) Oh, how will you ever get over the shame of it all.........

What makes you think you play in a "Bb band"? Is it the F horns? The Eb saxophones? The C flutes? That darn marimba? Should BBb players stay out of orchestras, then?

If anyone is out of tune, I believe that deficiency is more indicative of the player than their instrument.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

You know, I hear this cr@p from the college kids that come home every summer and play with our municipal band: "Hey, man, you're out of tune on that Gb. or Db."

Perhaps you could move your 3rd valve slide a bit? Or, alternatively, just ignore what the college kids say (honestly, why would it bother you?) and do what most good players do...try to play in tune with what's around you.

Guess what, guys, it's a Bb band. Bring your CC tuba to orchestra.

Wow, elitism from a Bb player in a band...who would have thought it possible? I'm glad I don't hear things like that from the Bb guys I play with in the summer here...how incredibly rude.

I've been through the "C and Bb tubas together in a band section" debate more times than I'd like. My experience in a number of community and college bands tells me that even relatively poor to average players can make it work just fine.

Todd S. "who thinks any decent-quality tuba can play in tune, regardless of its fundamental pitch" Malicoate

[imperialbari]

You know, I hear this cr@p from the college kids that come home every summer and play with our municipal band: "Hey, man, you're out of tune on that Gb. or Db."

Guess what, guys, it's a Bb band. Bring your CC tuba to orchestra.

Sorry to say so, Eric, but by any sane musical standard you are way off the mark on that standpoint of yours. I cannot tell whether the college kids are right or wrong in your special band situation.

It may be the first pedagogical step towards good sectional tuning to get a row of BBb tubists to play uniform pitches on all notes. But if that “section-being-in-tune-on-all-notes” is ruined, when schooled CC-players enter the section, then the tuning efforts have been revealed as just being a very rudimentary step on the road to good band tuning. What the BBb players have achieved is just being uniformly out of tune, which represents no real musical achievement.

You very likely have quoted the pitch complaints correctly, because it is extremely easy to trace the root of the problem:

Amateurs playing 3 valve BBb tubas are born sharp on 1+3 and 1+2+3 fingerings: low C, B natural, F, and E, if they don’t do on the fly slide corrections. Which they rarely do. They rather make a permanent pull on the 3rd slide allowing for in-tune C’s and F’s. That leads to 2+3 fingerings (Db & Gb), which are intolerably flat to musical ears.

How to correct these problem notes?

Make slide adjustments on the fly or get a 4 valve instrument. 4 valve instruments aren’t perfect either, but they allow the very common fingerings of 2+3 and of 1+3 (here converted to 4) to be in tune with the core pitch of the band, not just with a thoroughly faulty sectional pitch, on the notes in question.

And by the way, try watching the original version of Disney's "Fantasia." Whoever that tubist was, he was playing a SOUSAPHONE." (at least that's what they show on the film.) Oh, how will you ever get over the shame of it all.........

Yes, the shown brass bass and the heard brass bass are different instruments. Even were so in the original version of that movie according to those in the know.

Nobody fighting towards musical improvement should be ashamed of himself or herself. I obviously am less liberal towards those fighting their right to be out of tune.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[MartyNeilan]

You know, I hear this cr@p from the college kids that come home every summer and play with our municipal band: "Hey, man, you're out of tune on that Gb. or Db."

Amateurs playing 3 valve BBb tubas are born sharp on 1+3 and 1+2+3 fingerings: low C, B natural, F, and E, if they don’t do on the fly slide corrections. Which they rarely do. They rather make a permanent pull on the 3rd slide allowing for in-tune C’s and F’s. That leads to 2+3 fingerings (Db & Gb), which are intolerably flat to musical ears.

You are both right...
Many "older, American made" 3 valve tubas had the third valve made intentionally too long. This made the low C and F 13 combination more-or-less in tune, the 123 B's and E's only somewhat sharp, and the Gb's and Db's somewhat flat. Hence the Gb / Db problem. FWIW, many of these "older, American made" tubas had fairly wide pitch slots which made lipping the notes to the correct pitches possible with minimal slide pulling. However, it has been my experience that often notes that are acknowledged as being out of tune, but are said to be "lipped" are in fact usually just passed over played in their out of tune center.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

You may be correct, JP...I have no earthly idea if Bb or C players are more often guilty of thinking "my horn is right, you're out of tune."

But that shouldn't be the point, anyway. Everyone's goal should be to produce an in-tune, homogeneous sound as a section. As always, that can be best accomplished with one's ears rather than their mouth.

[rocksanddirt]

You may be correct, JP...I have no earthly idea if Bb or C players are more often guilty of thinking "my horn is right, you're out of tune."

But that shouldn't be the point, anyway. Everyone's goal should be to produce an in-tune, homogeneous sound as a section. As always, that can be best accomplished with one's ears rather than their mouth.

I agree, my expierence generally (not tuba specific) is that every section has someone who doesn't listen either to suggestions, or their own playing with the section.

[iiipopes]

I've played both. In concert. Depending on the player, the ensemble, the repertoire, the hall, the mouthpiece, etc., on any given day a CC will sound better than a BBb, and a BBb will sound better than a CC.

[tubashaman2]

.

[eupher61]

And by the way, try watching the original version of Disney's "Fantasia." Whoever that tubist was, he was playing a SOUSAPHONE." (at least that's what they show on the film.) Oh, how will you ever get over the shame of it all.........

All of the performances in 'Fantasia' were by the Philadelphia Orchestra, with Stokowski, except "The Sorcerer's Apprentice", which was a studio orchestra assembled by Stokowski. The onscreen orchestra was not performing.

Would that have been Donatelli?

Is this the first instance of music simulation in movies?? Not just 'faking it' by an actor, but actually using a non-performing person to simulate performance.

[windshieldbug]

And by the way, try watching the original version of Disney's "Fantasia." Whoever that tubist was, he was playing a SOUSAPHONE." (at least that's what they show on the film.) Oh, how will you ever get over the shame of it all.........

All of the performances in 'Fantasia' were by the Philadelphia Orchestra, with Stokowski, except "The Sorcerer's Apprentice", which was a studio orchestra assembled by Stokowski. The onscreen orchestra was not performing.

Would that have been Donatelli?

Is this the first instance of music simulation in movies?? Not just 'faking it' by an actor, but actually using a non-performing person to simulate performance.

We used to have a diminutive Music Director, and often, as he ascended the [extra tall] podium steps, someone in the low brass would say in a high and squeaky voice, "Thank you, Mr. Stokowski!"

[iiipopes]

The reason I play BBb? I play mostly band music. I'm too lazy to use my 3rd finger all that much and navigate interesting technical challenges for all the flat keys. I have too much fun as it is to change.

With upper brass and classical keyboard and voice in my background, changing to CC if I had to is no big deal. Just give me a couple of extra days to make sure I don't revert to BBb fingerings in a technical section.

The debate between BBb and CC will continue as long as both are made.

Funny, I wonder if these same debates ever occurred between and among Bb and C ophicleide players?

[oedipoes]

I think the BBb-CC thing has to do with quality of instruments too.

When you give starting tuba players a 'basic' BBb tuba to play, (old three pistons besson 700 or yamaha..., never been cleaned and full of dents), the people that hear them playing will not be very impressed.
When the same audience listens to a pro tuba player on a professional model CC (hirsbrunner, melton...) they will be very much pleased with the sound.
If you ask this audience afterwards, which key of tuba sounds best to them, don't be surprised they liked the CC better...

Good tuba players sound good on every tuba, and the tuba of their choice will be dependent on what sound they personally like better.

Wim (I like BBb better, but not the old BBb Yamaha 321 I play on in our band)

[iiipopes]

I am inclined to agree with the above post, from a simple physics standpoint: more tubing generally means more mass, which means more inertia.

I did notice that on my 186, when I had the rim narrowed on my Curry 128D, that not only did the embouchure feel better, but even that little bit of mass removed from a critical area helped facilitate a quicker response, and likewise, when I added golfer's tape to a Kelly 18 at the rim, wondering if it would have a beneficial effect as did adding the tape to the throat to stabilize the mouthpiece, instead it impeded response.

Of course, there will always be some BBb tubas made of thinner metal than other CC tubas, but try to compare similar models for this point of view, like a CC vs BBb version of a 186.

[Dan Schultz]

Different strokes for different folks. There's a whole heckofalot of things that can make tubas sound or play differently. It certainly can't be defined by the key. I've had tubas in each key that were dogs and tubas in each key that were good horns.... sometimes even the same model/brand of horns in the same key are quite different. This is an old argument that will go on forever without a definitive resolution.

[iiipopes]

Yes, for 186's, the taper is different for the key and the length of bugle, but the actual thickness of the metal for the bugle is the same, the comparative wrap for having @ 2 feet difference in length is a close as you can get, and the bell and the valve block is the same. So it's about as close as anyone can get of comparing a CC to a BBb and try to eliminate as many variables as possible.