Incompetency

[Rick Denney]

The "experts" in education are so removed from the actual needs of the student that they are missing the mark by a mile and caught in their own circular logic.

Somebody please turn the switch off. I have work to do.

(Establishments don't have to have creators. They just have to be entrenched. If we assume that all establishments have creators, we quickly find ourselves ensnared in conspiracy theories. Most establishments grow up from seeds, some of which are planted, but rarely planted with the full knowledge of what will grow. Very few establishments are constructed. Our constitution is an example of a constructed establishment. To the Protest Generation, The Establishment was the bourgeoisie, plus maybe the military-industrial complex, that fed on itself without central planning or conspiracy. It amuses me to use their word against what they have contributed to developing in our education system.)

People have needs. Systems don't have needs. Systems respond to needs. This is what is missing from current educational thinking, it seems to me.

There are reasons why a democratic society might have public education. For democracy to work (and I'm thinking of "democracy" in the "self-determination" sense, not in the republic-versus-democracy sense), the people must be literate, numerate, and have a reasonable understanding of history and the physical and political world. Thus, it is, reasonably and without in any way violating conservative principles, a need of society at large to have an educated populace.

And then there are the needs that children have for successful human development into responsible adults. These needs are, it seems to me, the sole responsibility of the parents, though I have no problem with the parents hiring the school system to provide some elements of it, using normal democratic processes. Those elements would include the more cultural aspects of education, though a society with appreciation for culture will have a bigger stake in its own success, in my view. But it's not "culture" they appreciate. It's music, art, drama, etc., that they appreciate. They would not include what should always be demonstrated and taught at home, including beliefs, principles, and morals. The schools do not need to teach morals. They need to enforce a standard of behavior sufficient to fulfill their requirements.

Parents have largely pushed their responsibility for developing the humans they have spawned to the schools, TV, day care, and now the Internet. The Education Establishment, as the collective system of beliefs with no leader, have participated in this shift of responsibility, because they are trained (even self-trained) to believe that their educational theory is the better way to develop humans.

So, the needs of society are that its members have a set of knowledge, skills, and abilities needed to perform their role as responsible citizens in a democratic society. The requirements that the education system must therefore fulfill have to do with imparting knowledge, teaching skills, and developing abilities. Principles, beliefs, morals, and culture should come from the parents, it seems to me, because they are not related to the societal needs for a public school system. Again, schools should enforce standards of behavior rather than morals. In fact, schools now spend much of their time on principles, beliefs, morals, culture (NOT music or art), and basically ignore enforcing standards of behavior and imparting knowledge, skills, and abilities.

Thus, parents and the Education Establishment that they are a part of have developed a co-dependent relationship, where parents push their kids at the school, and the school takes them.

No wonder kids feel disempowered, abandoned, and nihilistic.

And teachers who understand their proper role find themselves at odds with both parents and administrators, just as the friends of an abusively co-dependent couple find that they cannot offer advice to either party without attracting the ire of both.

Rick "probably really done this time" Denney

[TubaRay]

Finally, I believe that *contrived elaborate band trips (paid for by band parents) could be set aside in favor of purchasing instruments/equipment if a given school's parents, collectively, cannot raise enough money for both. Seriously, *WHO* in Orlando, France, Italy, or Japan is itching to hear some middle or high school band come and play for them?

I have refrained from getting too involved in this thread, knowing that my rant might well make Rick's seem short and tame. Bloke's comment(above) has forced me to abandon my plan. Through the years, it seems that band's have joined some other organizations in the ever-escalating trip plan. When I was in high school, our band took a one day trip to a nearby town for an outing which gave us some options of things we could do. These included swimming, paddle boating, and various other options. In my case, I chose to play golf. This trip cost me nothing, except I had to pay the green fee. It could have been completely free.

This has grown in its cost, through the years. It moved to being a trip to a major amusement park, to being an overnight trip, to going out of state, to going to Europe. One might guess the next escalation might mean a trip to the moon or the space station. I really don't know. It has gotten totally out of hand. It also requires a major expediture of cash, which is either provided by the parental units, or is done through fund raisers. Now, fund raisers are another part of the abuse. How many of us have paid twice as much as something(which we don't actually want) is worth, so that some student(usually our son/daughter, etc.) is able to apply 50% of that money to a trip, while some company pockets a sizeable profit?

Someone will likely defend this practice as being a necessary one. At this stage of the game, they might be right. I still find it offensive. If we have to buy students' participation in band programs, we are in deep trouble. And, I'm afraid we may be in deep trouble.

I will hold in reserve the rest of my rant on this topic.

[Rick Denney]

Just one of these, for the principal tuba...

I'm hoping that you define "principal" as the kid with the most interest and commitment to 1. making music, 2. practicing, and 3. caring for and appreciating the use of the instrument. Not that I did not include talent or even ability in my list. I love it when teachers favor the students with commitment over those with mere talent--it's often a wake-up call for the talented kids and those who are talented enough to go into music often need to be woken up.

On the subject of junkets and fund-raisers: Yes, and yes.

I happily support fund-raisers for band programs, if the money is used for a purpose that the student seeking the fund can articulate. No willingness to tell me where my money will be spent; no money. If the purpose is a trip, little is given. If it's a trip to a music conference, such as MENC, etc., then I give freely--these are usually honors bestowed on good programs who have earned their moment in the spotlight. If it's for uniforms or instruments, I give freely. I give more for fund-raisers where the students sell what they make. One local high school here (whose director is a very fine tuba player) makes Christmas wreaths, and we always buy them.

Most fund-raisers, though, are rip-offs for the benefit of the fund-raising company, as has been mentioned, selling candy or magazine subscriptions that nobody wants. I would rather they just solicit donations, and be able to articulate their need.

One of my nieces participated in a high-school trip with her school orchestra (this was a Texas high school). They performed in Carnegie Hall, which on the face of it seems like a big honor. But in fact it was just another rip-off, for the most part. Parents were arm-twisted into paying for the trip, many of whom had to stretch their family resources to do so. In the case of my niece, her family could not afford to travel to attend the concert. My wife and I, being much closer, went instead. The concert of the school orchestra was followed by a succession of regional choirs, all the members of which had bought into the same junket, and concluded with another large choir (or perhaps all those regional choirs put together) performing Carmina Burana with a pickup orchestra. When I considered what each amateur participant paid to the tour company that organized it, I realized that the tour company was making a very good business out of renting Carnegie Hall and hiring some tour buses for the day. It seemed to me that they cleared about 75% of the price they charged as profit.

At least it was a musical performance. Why do band members need to miss their other classes to go to Disneyworld? No wonder other academic teachers don't support the band program.

Rick "thinking most students would get more out of vacations with their families rather than vacations with their band-mates" Denney

[Alex C]

First, Texas sounds like a mess. I'm very surprised! I knew their pay was low (comparatively), but that sounds like the tip of the iceberg. Not too attractive!

......The NEA, like many similar groups, is self-serving and not representative of much of those they claim to represent. They serve no real purpose other than to suck up money.

Lastly, what you looking for above is a LLT. An LLT, or "Limited License to Teach" will get you into a classroom and responsible for molding those young minds that need you almost immediately after your impending retirement. They test you for content area and then have you take some classes (ed psych, methods---so you can learn to draw up T/F test or one with multiple choices and what have you, etc) only after you are already on the job in your own classroom.

If you think Texas is a mess in education, you ought to look elsewhere! The word "disaster" comes to mind. However, in Texas it does cost in the neighborhood of $4000 for courses to transition from a non-ed degree to a teaching license.

LLT is not a nationally recognized abbreviation in education. A state I taught in refers to it as a "B" certificate.

One state advertises agressively for non-education degree teachers but make them jump through hoops for a couple of years to get certified, meanwhile paying them at a lower rate. Oh, this year most of the school districts in that state stopped all health care subsidies for all teachers.

The NEA has little control over the states's teacher requirements. Each state is different but there are commonalities: low pay, adverse working conditions, little respect, flimsy retirement prospects and excessive/expensive continuing ed requirements. If you want to make education a career, consider administration; at least you'll make decent money.

[lgb&dtuba]

Rick/Ray,

When approached by my children's ensembles (either when they were still in those ensembles, or as an "alumni" parent) to fund-raise or cough up dough for super-extravagant and pointless band trips (L.A., New York, Italy, etc.)...

I'm actually going to have to agree 100% with what Joe said on this one.

In fact, when some years back my oldest kid was jacked up about one of those Europe trips I refused permission to go. And not just for the reasons Joe stated, which are all good ones as far as I'm concerned. At the time there was a fairly large surge of anti-American terrorism going on in the destination (target?) country and I thought that taking a bunch of high school kids into that area was irresponsible. If I remember correctly the trip eventually was canceled because quite a few (most) parents refused to cough up the money for it.

When my youngest was in middle school (trombone) they had already started making extravagant trip noises. At that point I withdrew all support for the program and let my son know it would be just fine with me if he dropped band in favor of baseball and electric guitar. Which he promptly did.

[imperialbari]

Rick is right about dedication to be promoted over lazy talent. When I was the leader of previously run down Christian youth band, there was a mighty talented 15 years old solo cornet player, who had promised to run the band, but who really destroyed it. He continued under my baton, but when I made some of the other members improve, he got really nasty, as he didn’t want to practise. When he was outplayed, he said nasty and degrading things. Something hard to control, as not everything happened within my earshot.

His father was a choir director, who visited the band during a rehearsal. While we talked during the break, the son stole my keys and locked up his father and me in the classroom.

I asked the father what he would have done. Thrown him out! I just quarantined him for a month and gave his instrument (the best we had) to his sidekick. He didn’t come back, and the band flowered as a collective.

On private ownership and on the purposefulness of band trips I am with bloke most of the way. The band I joined after moving to the Copenhagen area to study had a strict policy. If private buys were done, only instruments improving the band instrumentarium were allowed. The band director, who had majored in organ and had trombone as his second instrument, was able to do qualified consultancy, as he also had been a draft cornet player in a pro military band, which was possible back then. The result still is with me 41 years later: the B&H Imperial baritone.

During my teaching years I promoted private ownership of good instruments. An incentive to students was, that the kickback I got went directly into their own pockets. Having private instruments in the ensembles greatly improved general responsibility.

There are sick and insignificant band trips, but when I grew up in Northern Germany we twice a year were visited by Danish bands from the same Christian organisation, I later worked within. In June during the 4th-of-July equivalent of the Danish minority there local Danish bands visited just about every Danish school south of the border and joined to a 500+ members massed band on a square in Flensborg late Sunday afternoon. During the fall holidays a nationally picked band went on tour to selected towns down there. I have later on taken part in both of these activities, which made very good sense.

Other tours have taken me to the stages of The Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Hall, Royal Albert Hall, and a huge permanent Bulgarian summer opera on the coast of the Black Sea. That also made good sense, even if I really don’t like the hassles of travelling.

I happen to know about bloke’s wish to travel with Deb. And they are most welcome here. Just bring mouthpieces, a flute, and a blowtorch (for a bit of soldering to be done).

Klaus

[tubaribonephone]

My first band director in 7th grade was/is a tuba player. He studied with some great tuba players through the years and is a very good player himself. When the school he teaches at now was first built (I believe around 1996), he was going to get all new school instruments. He choose YBB-321's.

Like I said, I was in 7th grade, not 6th. I also started on a 24AW and not a Helleburg. That being said, I am glad that I started on YBB-321. When I moved in the middle of 8th grade, I had a little 3 valve Olds (which my brother plays on now in his 7th grade class) at my new school and was PISSED that they didn't have a single 4 valve horn! My new director even told me that I would have to wait until I was at the high school to play a horn with 4 valves because he felt "a 4 valve tuba would be to hard for a junior high student to learn." The upside was that because I was used to playing on that bigger horn, I could put a lot of sound out of the small Olds! Yes the horn was a little big but that is why my first director had a tuba playing stand for EVERY tuba. We even checked them out with the horn.

I think every tuba player should have the option to play a 4 valve horn when they first start out if they are big enough or at least play on one when they are around 8th or 9th grade.

[rocksanddirt]

interesting thoughts.

on the general education issues....my kids are not our local alleged kwality skuls, but our local waldorf school.

on the trip thing....without a definite educational objective, I'm not feel'n it.

[Rick Denney]

interesting thoughts.

on the general education issues....my kids are not our local alleged kwality skuls, but our local waldorf school.

on the trip thing....without a definite educational objective, I'm not feel'n it.

Something Joe hinted at: Private schools are no guarantee of success. Sometimes they are better, sometimes they are better and some things and much worse and more important things.

But even most public schools will work if the parents take an active role in the education of their kids. I have great sympathy and respect for those who take on the challenge of home-schooling--they are taking the ultimate responsibility. And even if they do poorly, they can hardly do worse academically than most schools. But the family relationship can't help but be better.

At my home, we did something now quite uncommon. We had dinner together. At dinner, the day's doings at school were discussed, and we weren't allowed to mumble banalities. There were times when the schools were unreasonable with me or my sibling, and I believe my parents now regret some of the automatic support for the school's position that they upheld. But those mistakes were overwhelmed by my confidence in their active interest and participation in my education. Schools are much worse now than then, but I find that current young'uns seem to survive them when their parents don't delegate their role as parents to the schools.

I went on a couple of band trips, largely earning the money myself. But after those two, it occurred to me that I didn't really enjoy those trips--I was always trying to find my way between the cliques of the socially bestowed and the burgeoning criminals. I had other friends from other contexts (e.g. church) whose company I enjoyed more, and for better reasons. Not surprisingly, the trips those groups took got a lot more support from my parents, and they didn't interfere with my other school work.

On the subject of teacher pay in Texas, it's dreadful. But--and this is a more significant "but" than many of those teachers may realize--it is FAR cheaper to live in most Texas cities than in most other cities. $40K in Fort Worth is probably about as useful as $65K in, say, the Virginia suburbs of Washington.

Rick "schools are not parents, nor are they churches" Denney

[Uncle Buck]

Rick "schools are not parents, nor are they churches" Denney

That statement says a lot. I agree that a lot of criticism of public schools is warranted, but I also think much of the criticism comes from those who expect public schools to be one or both of those things.