"Original" 1911 Conn 4v BBb

[The Big Ben]

Here's a neat horn for someone who might want an 'original' beefy BBb horn:


http://cgi.ebay.com/CG-Conn-Concert-4-V ... otohosting" target="_blank" target="_blank

By the serial number, it seems to be from 1911. The Conn Loyalist site doesn't have a model number for it. Looking at the design, you can tell it is an early example of an "American" style tuba.

One attraction to this horn is that it appears to be in good, original shape. No major dents, the bell appears to have never been dented and, with the exception of a long patch on one of the outside branches, the plating is intact.

This horn would almost be ruined by having it restored. It's a piece of history just like it is. Lots of clear pictures.

[SplatterTone]

Wouldn't it be great to have the money and the space in the house to collect a mountain of this kind of stuff.

[eupher61]

Just a guess, but that looks like a Jumbo body, which at that time was a custom-made horn. Compare/contrast with

conn & B&S.jpg

the horn on the right...not as good a picture as I remembered, but the best I can do. Yes, this one is rotary, but ignore that.

[Lew]

Wouldn't it be great to have the money and the space in the house to collect a mountain of this kind of stuff.

Talk to Mike Lynch, he has about 300 tubas last I heard, mainly old unique or interesting models.

[pjv]

What I can't figure out is why this particular Conn's tubing is so much different than all the other Conn's I've seen. Even the 19thC Conn's retain the logical straight forward wrap common to all Conn tuba models.

Hmmm.

[Dan Schultz]

What I can't figure out is why this particular Conn's tubing is so much different than all the other Conn's I've seen. Even the 19thC Conn's retain the logical straight forward wrap common to all Conn tuba models.

Hmmm.

Of equal interest to me is that the seller states that the horn has a 17 3/4" diameter bell. I might have expected the horn to fall into the class of some of the other 'monster' tubas of the day that had 19 1/2, 20, or 22" bells.

[ztuba]

I know a guy in Vegas that owns this exact model of conn tuba. It is the only conn I would ever own... It has a glorious sound, unlike every other conn I have ever played on. If someone gets that horn for under 3K imma be pissed

[pjv]

I'm not really certain if Conn had model #'s back then.

Hey Ztuba, can you convince your friend to send a picture of his horn to you with some info (bore size, playing characteristics, etc) then you could post it. I'm especially interested in the meaning of MPBP B&SB.

Thanks, Pat

[UDELBR]

I'm especially interested in the meaning of MPBP B&SB.

Oughta be "MPBP B&SW": Metal Polishers, Buffers, Platers, Brass Moulders, Brass and Silver Workers. They were labor unions back in the day.

[windshieldbug]

Of equal interest to me is that the seller states that the horn has a 17 3/4" diameter bell. I might have expected the horn to fall into the class of some of the other 'monster' tubas of the day that had 19 1/2, 20, or 22" bells.

The c.17 1/2" bugle seems to be pretty standard for them, back in those days.

By the serial number, it seems to be from 1911. The Conn Loyalist site doesn't have a model number for it.

The company didn't seem to have what we would recognize as model numbers until after Conn, himself, retired and sold the company in 1915. Later, the model letter ("J") designations were developed. Just because it doesn't have a number doesn't mean that it wasn't an early model, just that it wasn't a "J" model.

[ztuba]

The only thing I know about this horn .. is that they rock... I hate all conn tubas... this one ... I love. The one my buddy has is laquer and not in as nice condition as this one

[pjv]

Them be fightin' words.

Ztuba, thats twice you've hated on Conn. Considering that one of the things many players like about old Conn's (up until about the 60's) is that heavy metal low resistance Conn sound, I'm really curious as to what it is you hate about that sound (and what you don't here in your friends axe).

-Patrick

[ztuba]

They are nasty sounding horns. they dont resonate they are tubby and the new ones are too krass and don't have any meat... it is like Conn missed the boat with everything they do except this model... I personally do not like anything Conn did besides this and the 20k ... of course I have never played on the 22 inch fixed bell version of the monster horn ye... the one with 4 valves that dillon has.

[The Big Ben]

They are nasty sounding horns. they dont resonate they are tubby and the new ones are too krass and don't have any meat... it is like Conn missed the boat with everything they do except this model... I personally do not like anything Conn did besides this and the 20k ... of course I have never played on the 22 inch fixed bell version of the monster horn ye... the one with 4 valves that dillon has.

Geez, man... "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, what did you think of the play?"

----

What I found interesting about this horn and why I posted it is the design. Last week, there was a thread about the various York-O-Clones since AJ became 'world famous' and others wanted a horn the same as or similar to the CSO York. I did a little research on my own and looked at pictures I was able to easily find of the HB-50 and the Holton 345. Oberloh has a BBb York of 30's vintage he's restoring and I've seen that one, too.

If you took a picture of the backside of an HB-50 and put it down next to a photo of the backside of this Conn, the similarities are pretty obvious: the shape of the branches and the shape of the bell and bell stack. Dan Schultz commented on the smaller diameter of the bell than what he expected. The 'Grand Orchestral" Conn for sale at Dillon's right now looks similar in the branches but the bell looks very, very different! There is a thread found on the old BBS style TubeNet that discussed the designs leading up to the CSO York and how that horn had been passed through a couple of players before AJ adopted it and made it famous.

I'm gonna stop here before I step in it and get some on myself. I'd really like to, someday, have a classic, vintage horn to play. This, to me, looks like a great candidate. This one might need a valve job but, other than that, it appears to 'need' nothing.

[Eric B]

They are nasty sounding horns. they dont resonate they are tubby and the new ones are too krass and don't have any meat... it is like Conn missed the boat with everything they do except this model... I personally do not like anything Conn did besides this and the 20k ... of course I have never played on the 22 inch fixed bell version of the monster horn ye... the one with 4 valves that dillon has.

In 1988, Harvey Phillips played on an old Conn CC (Model???) in a masterclass I attended as a high schooler. He definately had a distinctive tone, but I was amazed at the resonance he produced...it was alive and vibrant. I'll never forget how eye opening that was for me.

[Tubadork]

They are nasty sounding horns. they dont resonate they are tubby and the new ones are too krass and don't have any meat... it is like Conn missed the boat with everything they do except this model... I personally do not like anything Conn did besides this and the 20k ... of course I have never played on the 22 inch fixed bell version of the monster horn ye... the one with 4 valves that dillon has.

Zach,
What would be your ideal sounding tuba? Just curious?
Bill

[ztuba]

The only conns I have played on are the huge old ones that people seem to worship. (Seriously not a fan) That 17 inch bell one that I love. The 20k sousaphone (new ones) I am just retarded in love with. On the other hand those new "tubas" in my opinion are a waste of brass that should be shipped to a miraphone or meinl weston factory. Who makes a 17 inch bell that is all flair, or a 6/4 horn with a .689 bore?? WHY!!!!!!! KHAN!!!!!! Maybe it is just the Wrath of Conn! No pah intended. This model here .. .773 bore 17 inch bell that is NOT all flair. It has a large sound and actually responds when you blow a buzz into it. The only reason people are so big on the old conns is because York went out of business to make artillery or tanks or whatever. If there were more Yorks, no one would ever play conn.. Darwin was right in that aspect of things.

[pjv]

eh, by older I meant 50-100 years old.

As far as I know, the xJ and 1xJ series are all .656 bore, the 2xJ and 3xJ series .773 bore and with the 8xJ series I'm uncertain, but you'll find .734 bores in there I believe. (I think the Eb came in .693 but I'm not so familiar with them). Only in the xJ and 1xJ models did one "generally" get a 16/17 or so inch bell. Bellsizes in the bell-up models range from 20-23" and even larger for bell-front tubas. The pre-model # tubas fit somewhere into this sketch, more or less.

I speaking very generally.

The newer Conns (5xJ series) are a different story. They're more comparable to King-type tubas I believe.

Is it possible the horrible sounding tubas that you so hated (.689 bore w/17' bell flair) were not older Conn's? Its certainly not a 6/4 horn in the sense that most people use it. More 3/4 to 4/4. These are also rather vague terms of coarse.

-Pat

[Paul Scott]

I played a very similar model nearly 30 years ago when I was considering it for purchase. It was an identical instrument except for the bell which was 21.5 inches in diameter-its' serial # was 143202. The bell stack was so large that the tuba was nearly as wide as it was tall, (and it was 40 inches tall)! The model that I played was not very satisfactory but I'll bet that a smaller bell would have helped.

My favorite Conn model is the rather rare Donatelli BBb and I must admit that I haven't liked many others.

[Cowgo]

I absolutely love my old 1913 Conn Orchestra Grand. 22" upright bell with a .773 bore.I had the tuning slide cut to bring it into modern pitch and it is one sweet player.