Reworking an old Martin

[Tuba Guy]

I have a 1962 Martin BBb 6/4 3v that I got from a local school (almost for free, actually). I paid to have the bell rolled out (it was slightly crushed, which is why the band director thought it was unplayable). I really like the sound of this horn (it's got one of those huge tuba sounds), but the intonation tends to be a little off (even with slide pulling).
I have been looking online and haven't found another horn like this one (one piece bell up, NOT recording bell), and was worried that if I had a 4th valve added, it could destroy the horn's historical value, or something like that. I was also thinking that I would get it replated (it's currently lacquer) in silver to have it match my little CC or Eb.
In everyone's opinions, is it ok to have the horn worked on like this? The 4th valve would definitely help intonation (I'd probably also have them shorten the 1st slide a little to fix the "only 3 valves so we're making all of the other slides longer" thing), and the silver would give it a more uniform look and slightly darker sound. I just wouldn't want to do anything to a rare horn (like when people cut down York BBb into CCs)
Also, if anyone knows who (and how much) replating in silver would cost, that would be greatly appreciated knowledge.
Thanks,
Adam

[Paul Scott]

I wouldn't worry about harming the horns' historical value. Post-War 3-valve Martins aren't all that rare and a friend of mine had a fourth-valve added to a 6/4 Martin with good results. Are you sure it was made in 1962? Some of the serial # lists are quite a bit off for Martins and if you post the serial # I could give you a second opinion. A one-piece bell-up design makes me think it might be a bit older. Is it a side or top-action model? It'd be great to see pics if that's possible.

[Tuba Guy]

Serial is 9067, I believe (it's a little hard to see that part right now, it's still decorated from tuba christmas)...and looking at some online serial number charts, that doesnt even seem like it's possible.
It's a front action piston horn, bell up (and again, one piece)

When I first got it, before I got the bell fixed


The horn as of a few days ago (ok, so I went a little overboard decorating it for tuba christmas...)

I'll try to get a few better pictures after I play for my neighbor's grandkids today (and can finally take all of the junk off)

[Dan Schultz]

Serial is 9067, I believe

I would think there are more numbers. Four digits is sort of off the chart.... waaaay pre-1919.

[Tuba Guy]

Yeah, it seems really wierd to me too, but that's the number that's on the front of the 2nd valve casing, along with the number "2" (and likewise, the other valevs have 1 and 3 on them...guess which number is on which valve). On the other side of the 2nd valve casing, it has a "union made" stamp. The 9067 is also engraved on the top of the valve pistons.

[Paul Scott]

I suspect that horn was made quite a bit earlier than 1962. Martin kept two sets of serial #s and many four-digit numbers were used from 1929 up to about 1933. BUT-it could be quite a bit older than that. I'm wondering if it was a high-pitch horn because it looks as though someone elongated the main slide at some point, (that may account for some pitch issues). Does the bell say "The Martin" or "Martin Band Instrument Company", (or something else)? "

[Mikelynch]

Has anyone in the TNFJ ever seen a Martin with that configuration tuning slide? I never have.

Does it look original? It almost (but not quite) looks like a standard slide as I am used to seeing would take out about a whole step worth of tubing . . .

Could there be another reason for odd intonation?

Mike Lynch

[Tuba Guy]

"The Martin
Band-Inst
Elkhart
Ind"
it appears in that configuration, inside a lot of engraving

[Tuba Guy]

Has anyone in the TNFJ ever seen a Martin with that configuration tuning slide? I never have.

Does it look original? It almost (but not quite) looks like a standard slide as I am used to seeing would take out about a whole step worth of tubing . . .

Could there be another reason for odd intonation?

Mike Lynch

My repairman (who I have no reason to distrust) said that the tuning slide was made from a leadpipe (or something along those lines). It's actually got a nicely in tune open Bb...the valved notes are fairly good with the exception of C in the staff (really flat), the D partial, and the low C and B of course (3 valve combos)
Also, this horn has a fairly amazing upper register...I once took it up to the same note as a trumpet's double G. Not that I'd use that normally, but it was still strange that such a big horn could go so high.

[imperialbari]

The main tuning slide’s funny shape might very well tell about an instrument made to old high pitch and then converted to low pitch after the reform (was it in 1920?).

I am for keeping the instruments as original as possible, but I also find that instruments shall be ready for ensemble playing if at all possible. One approach satisfying both demands would be to unmount the present valve block with slides and all, and then keep it. The instrument then could be equipped with a 4 piston block from Meinl Weston, Miraphone, Nirschl, or whichever maker able to provide the optimum wrap for this instrument.

Klaus

[Tuba Guy]

About what would be the price range on something like that? I get the feeling it's a little more than I would be able to afford...

[Paul Scott]

Yep, that's an oldie. If there is no mention of "Handcraft" on the bell it's probably going back to the early 'teens or even earlier. I collect Martins and I have the feeling that slide was made to lower the pitch of the horn. Does that 3rd valve tubing have a "double-wrap" on top, (it doesn't appear to). Could it be a CC tuba that someone adapted to BBb? Martin did make CCs....

[The Big Ben]

About what would be the price range on something like that? I get the feeling it's a little more than I would be able to afford...

Well, in talking to a guy who does this sort of stuff, if you want to have it look and play right you might have $10K into it and you would have to wait a couple of years. Not every horn jockey can or will take a job like that on.

The silver plating will cost $1.5K+ all by itself.

My thinking is to get the horn in as best shape as possible and play it. Spend $500 or so cleaning it up- have the bell rolled really nice, maybe have the valved lapped, maybe shorten the first valve shortened some like you talked about- and enjoy it. If, after a couple of years of use, you decide that you want to go all out, have at it. 6/4 horns have a glorious sound but only fit in certain places.

[Tuba Guy]

Ok, so I finally got all of the crap off the horn so I could look more closely. It does not say "handcraft" on the bell. It does have a double loop on the 3rd valve slide (from the angles of the pictures, the loop was hidden behind).
Also, the "union label" says "MFBP" and on the next line "BWU" (I think...a couple spots were hard to read, but I think this is what it is) Any ideas on this, or if it helps anything?
Eh, 10k is a bit too steep at this point (I could actually get a 6/4 CC for about that much, and possibly 2 BBbs). The plating price is about what I expected, but hopefully if I win a concerto competition and get a grant from my school, plus money from gigs and various holidays, I might be able to afford that much.

[Paul Scott]

I've seen that "union label" on Bueschers dating from around 1915 or so, but I don't know what those acronyms stand for. Silver plating the horn may not be worth it since they put pretty thin plating on these days. If you can figure out what's up with the tuning slide you might be able to correct some of the intonation problems. I've seen a picture of a horn like yours but with a MUCH smaller main slide. I'm still wondering if this was originally a 3-valve CC tuba because there's quite a bit of tubing added to your slide!

[Tuba Guy]

I actually measured it when I first got it to see if I could convert it to CC (just to see if it could be done, before I realized that I didn't want to risk ruining the horn, and neither did my repairman). The legnth needed to make it into a CC would have to have gone straight across between the tubing. So...it could be possible, but I don't really think it was too likely.
...Actually, that just gave me an idea...tomorrow I'll try just running a hose where the tuning slide is...see what pitch this puts the horn at...if it could work out, I may make a slide...assuming it doesn't put the horn in BB (that'd just be mean to myself)

[Paul Scott]

There is another possibility. I have a Martin from about 1917 that was built in the old low pitch, (roughly 435, I think). It's an Eb tuba that is generally closer to being a D tuba nowadays! If it was a CC tuba built to 435 it may seem like a BB tuba indeed. But the bugle may have the right dimensions for a CC tuba, if the the valve tubing is corrected. Keep us posted!

[iiipopes]

Conventionally, at A440, to convert a BBb to a CC, you need to remove 24 inches of tubing from the bugle, and a significant amount from each valve slide. Please just leave it be in its wonderful patina for its age condition.

I seriously doubt the horn was anything but a BBb, because there has been no commentary on the relative in- or out- of tune playing with valve combinations other than the expected quirks: flat 5th partials and sharp multi-valve combinations.

Everybody in this 4- 5- and 6- valve world forgets what is done so 3-valve horns play in relative tune: 1) Pull 1 so it is a few cents flat; 2) pull 2 so it is a couple of cents flat; 3) this keeps 1+2 from being so sharp; 4) pull 3 so 2+3 is slightly flat, so 5) 1+3 is not so sharp as to be lippable, and, well 6) who uses B nat and low E nat in any respectible band music anyway (said tongue in cheek) and finally 7) the slots are wide enough that you can then focus your embouchure, set pitch and blow.

[The Big Ben]

Eh, 10k is a bit too steep at this point (I could actually get a 6/4 CC for about that much, and possibly 2 BBbs). The plating price is about what I expected, but hopefully if I win a concerto competition and get a grant from my school, plus money from gigs and various holidays, I might be able to afford that much.

Or buy stuff like food and car insurance...

[Matt G]

If you want to throw a new valve cluster on that horn, figure the approximate price of the cluster, and half again that for a good repair tech to do it. So if you figure $2500 for a valveset (I have no idea what a VMI set would cost nowadays) and about $1200 to get the thing mounted in a "proper" fashion.

I am guessing this horn has a good false tone register. A good tuning slide mechanism is probably all you need for 95% of the rep. Even though it is possibly set up for "three valve tuning" as most 3V BBbs are, I never did get into the set-it-and-forget-it mentality, especially with a horn this big. I had a horn of similar dimensions and setup, and ultimately sold it with three valves. However, if I had kept playing, I was going to get a VMI 3302 (I think that is the 5V BBb set) valveset grafted on. While the false tones were solid, getting the pitch right with the false tones doesn't seem as easy as the true fingering, since (IMO) false tones seem to lack a bit of the core I look for.