Need help identifying an old B&S tuba.

[ampersandman]

Hi everyone, I'm primarily a trombonist, but I recently acquired a B&S BBb Tuba. There are no markings to give any indication of the model, but it has a vertical pull main tuning slide, as well as 4 rotary valves. Are any of you able to identify the model and year? The serial number appears to be 185108, but the first 8 was not stamped well, so it could be a 3.


This is a modern PT-1 for comparision:


It looks like a PT-1 but the bell is much smaller, about 16 3/4 inches. The height is about 41 or 42 inches.

I'm in the midst of converting the linkage to Dubro parts according to Mr Denny's website, but the project is temporarily put to a halt, because I'm waiting for some parts to arrive.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[iiipopes]

Looks like their "standard" BBb pre-Perantucci to me. The @16 1/2 inch stovepipe bell is pretty standard on most older rotary German or other European tubas, and is still the diameter on such horns as the St Pete or the B&S "Hilgers" model. It's only been in the last generation that the bell flares have gotten wider on production horns, like the PT-1 and the 186.

Age? I haven't a clue.

[ampersandman]

Is bell size a major factor for anything in particular, like playability or anything like that? It feels to me like a very focused sound, that does not require as much air to achieve a good healthy tone. Personally, this tuba is more manageable as compared to, say, a Yamaha 641.

The biggest difference that I can perceive between this tuba and other tubas which I have handled is the weight. This thing weighs as light as a feather! Is weight a desirable factor, or is just superfluous?

Also, the 4th rotor is kinda scratchy. Is there anything I can do short of taking it to the repairman to make the action smoother? I have experience in removing the valve, and have done so to several tubas, including this one, on several occasions. I read in some places to use toothpaste in order to "lap" the valve into the casing. Is this a safe thing to do? Is there a chance of toothpaste traveling to the adjacent valve and screwing up something there? The strange thing is that the 4th valve and bearing plate appears pinkish compared to the others; I'm guessing it has something to do with the copper in the brass. Anyone knows if this is a bad thing, or if it is harmless?

[Dan Schultz]

...... Also, the 4th rotor is kinda scratchy. Is there anything I can do short of taking it to the repairman to make the action smoother? .....

The first rotor is most prone to wear because it is used the most. The 4th rotor is most prone to damage simply because it is exposed at the lower area of the horn where it's likely to get bumped. If you have a 'scratchy' condition, it's probably being caused by the rotor rubbing the inside of the casing. First... before you do anything else... take the rotors apart and give everything a good cleaning... plus the inside of the leadpipe to eliminate any possibility that what you are experiencing is not just grit or mineral deposits. Then.... if you still have a 'scratchy' condition.... this is normally caused by the bearings being too loose. Don't lap anything because all that does is remove material... something that is not normally require on an old horn. The fact that the 4th rotor parts are a different color that the rest indicates to me that its been worked on recently. The first thing you need to do is make sure the rear bearing plate is properly aligned and seated in the casing. If all is well in that department, look for a bent rotor stem. This is pretty easy to spot by just looking at it as you turn the rotor. If just cleaning and proper assembly doesn't straighten things up.... take the horn to a repair shop that has experience with tubas and rotary valves.

[ampersandman]

The rotor itself seems to be in order, nothing bent or damaged... I believe there is a layer of some sort of oxidation on both the bearing plate and the rotor, because when I scratch it with my fingernail, the pink surface comes off to reveal a normal color underneath. I am considering just polishing the whole thing until the layer comes off and the color returns to normal. The valve actually works fine, it just needs a lot more oil than the other valves to quieten the scratchy sound.

[Dan Schultz]

Does anyone have a picture of an old USA-import 1970's Schneider CC ?

I'm thinking that it's not quite like a Schneider, because I'm thinking the Schneider had a horizontal main slide...

The horn in question is supposed to be a BBb. The Schneider BBb tubas I've seen have the same horizontal main tuning slide as some of the other classic B & S-built BBb tubas... aka, Sonora, Carl Wunderlich, and Gerhart SCHNEIDER. I've not seen any of the early B & S BBb tubas with a vertical main tuning slide as appears on the 'mystery tuba'. Of course... I've not seen EVERYTHING!

[MartyNeilan]

The rotor itself seems to be in order, nothing bent or damaged... I believe there is a layer of some sort of oxidation on both the bearing plate and the rotor, because when I scratch it with my fingernail, the pink surface comes off to reveal a normal color underneath. I am considering just polishing the whole thing until the layer comes off and the color returns to normal. The valve actually works fine, it just needs a lot more oil than the other valves to quieten the scratchy sound.

I have seen this occur on tuba 4th valves and bass trombone second rotors - those valves are never used by some players who are unfamiliar with them, so they freeze up or don't get the "natural lubrication" that goes through regularly used rotors.
The best thing is usually to tap the rotor out and thoroughly clean all crud and/or oxidation off it, then lube and reassemble.
I once had a nice rotor CC tuba, where you could tell the 5th valve had been jammed down and the 4th valve never used. I'll bet that player had some great intonation going on!

[iiipopes]

Is bell size a major factor for anything in particular, like playability or anything like that? It feels to me like a very focused sound, that does not require as much air to achieve a good healthy tone. Personally, this tuba is more manageable as compared to, say, a Yamaha 641.

The biggest difference that I can perceive between this tuba and other tubas which I have handled is the weight. This thing weighs as light as a feather! Is weight a desirable factor, or is just superfluous?

You've just summed up why a lot of folks really like this kind of tuba.

[imperialbari]

From a 1985 B&S catalogue- Weltklang BBb.jpg

As told far too often B&S like a lot of other European makers used modular designs, where the same basic main bugle depending on the outfit regarding especially number of valves and the type of valve transmission would be classified as the high end B&S model or the student/amateur line Weltklang. And then there were the many samples in between which must be discussed specifically when surfacing.

The B&S BBb tuba shown in the same catalogue:

B&S BBb tuba from a 1985 catalogue.jpg

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[imperialbari]

The strange thing is that the 4th valve and bearing plate appears pinkish compared to the others; I'm guessing it has something to do with the copper in the brass. Anyone knows if this is a bad thing, or if it is harmless?

The pink colour comes from the lapping compound used by B&S in the original production.

I would try to remove it by means of a thin valve oil and maybe a soft toothbrush.

Klaus

[ampersandman]

I tried scrubbing the valves with a bit of scotch-brite, it moves much smoother now. It doesn't sound like there is any leakage that result from the removal of the deposits. The valves all move fine when I apply rotary valve oil, however, the valves become scratchy not long after. I am currently using Hetman 11, light rotor oil, what I currently use for my trombone's thayer valve. Should I get a different kind of oil that would hopefully last longer? Any recommendations? Sorry for being off-topic.

Moving back on-topic, can anyone warrant a guess as to the age of this tuba? I'm guessing it should be 25 years or older? When did the Perantoni line of tubas start come in production?

John

[KHHS]

From a 1985 B&S catalogue- Weltklang BBb.jpg

As told far too often B&S like a lot of other European makers used modular designs, where the same basic main bugle depending on the outfit regarding especially number of valves and the type of valve transmission would be classified as the high end B&S model or the student/amateur line Weltklang. And then there were the many samples in between which must be discussed specifically when surfacing.

I have a tuba that looks and measures like the pictured Weltklang-BBb model, but with a B&S-logo on the (vertical) main tuning slide and bell and it has straight valve linkage.
The serial no. is "0210569 Made in GDR". Probably late 80s?
The valve linkage I had just recently changed to Unibal on the valve ends. It has a very smooth action now.
As the original poster i too think this instrument doesn't need much air and responds very well. But i have not played many other tubas to compare. The tuning is good, when i use 4 for c in the staff and 4+2 for B below that. All other notes down to low Db can be lipped to play in tune with standard fingerings. I never pull slides. The slide-setting i use is a somewhat strange: 3 and 4 are pulled out quite far (>2 Inches), while 1 and 2 are all in.
As a mouthpiece i'm now using a Yamaha Canadian Brass signature, which helped me in the high and low range(!) and has a nice colourful sound. Nevertheless i'm thinking of trying a PT65. Anyone ever used that on a BBb-Tuba like this?

KHHS

[ampersandman]

Apparently they added an extra zero to the front of the serial number at some point of time. An anticipation of increased production?

One thing I noticed is the the pictured Weltklang BBb does not have a wreath (is that what it's called?) on the bell. This is also true for the modern Perantucci series. Is this significant? Why did B&S stop making tubas with wreaths on the bell?

[Dan Schultz]

Apparently they added an extra zero to the front of the serial number at some point of time. An anticipation of increased production?

One thing I noticed is the the pictured Weltklang BBb does not have a wreath (is that what it's called?) on the bell. This is also true for the modern Perantucci series. Is this significant? Why did B&S stop making tubas with wreaths on the bell?

That 'wreath', 'garland', or 'kranz'... whatever one prefers to call it was just a mechanical element to attach a wire to the bell. Without the 'kranz' the bell is just a sharp edge. I personally don't think there is any advantage tone-wise over the modern 'rolled-wire-in-rim' assembly method. Perhaps cost is now a major issue and the bell with the wire rolled into the rim is cheaper to manufacture. I think the 'kranz' will eventually disappear for good.

[Dan Schultz]

I think the 'kranz' will eventually disappear for good.

Get real, Dan. If tuba players keep likin' 'em, tuba makers will keep stickin' 'em on tubas.

I don't like 'em. I've had to fix too many that were loose and 'buzzy'. Of course, a rolled wire rim can get 'buzzy' too... but they aren't as nasty to calm down.

[Dan Schultz]

....... a well-placed clothes pin will very often do the trick!

Speaking of clothes pins... I had a 1934 Chevy 'standard six' that wouldn't run in the summer without four spring clothes pins on the fuel line where it entered the carburetor.

[imperialbari]

When your 5-tet tuba does the buzz all by itself, it is small wonder that you don’t need any warm-ups before those barn-burning morning school jobs.

K

PS: Are there any self-buzzing-tuba-problems that can’t be fixed with a lump of chewing gum?

[imperialbari]

Garlands rarely are seen on French, British, and American instruments, whereas they are common on German and Czech instruments. The reason shall be found in different production methods.

Cutting a brass instrument’s bell out of one single piece of sheet brass is difficult in its own right. Even trumpet bells with their not so extreme flares start out with an odd mushroom profile, which is then folded, joined by a complex seam, and hammered, spun, and trimmed over a mandrel.

In the German/Czech tradition this process ends up with the metal being very thin at the edge of the rim. Physically not very stable and acoustically very alive. Very responsive, but also very easily overblown. The German/Czech remedy is the addition of a garland, most often out of nickel silver. According to a German expert the garland helps against overblowing to a certain point from where the sound suddenly becomes very rough.

Especially the British makers chose another solution to avoid the metal thinning radically at the rim. They joined a triangular gusset in the flare area by means of the same meandering seams as the main seam. Physically very stable, but for acoustical reasons not popular in professional trumpets and trombones. Maybe the reason for the odd grump in the sound of some tubas taken beyond the limits of their players and themselves.

Some garlands are made seamless out of one piece of nickel silver and only hammered into shape and then mounted on the bell by being rolled over the bell rim. I have a Scherzer trumpet out of red brass with a very wide nickel silver garland, which appears to be fused to the read brass in the flare area.

Klaus

[Dan Schultz]

..... Especially the British makers chose another solution to avoid the metal thinning radically at the rim. They joined a triangular gusset in the flare area by means of the same meandering seams as the main seam.....

Klaus... Many German/Czech bells are built with this same technique... a triangle inserted into the bell flare. The end result is STILL a rim that is too thin to be very stable.

Even some of the US manufacturers market horns with garlands on the bells. Olds made a trombone with a very heavy garland on the bell. There were also some attempts at totally rimless bells.

Some of the most 'interesting' bell-rims I've seen have a simple piece of silver piping perhaps 1/2" wide soldered to the rim. For some time, I thought this was just the result of rims that were broken and had been replaced with whatever the repairman had around. However, I've seen several of this type of rim and have come to the conclusion that some European manufacturers may have given this a try for a while.

[Dan Schultz]

That try must have taken place a very long time ago!!!

We keep 2 instruments with such a soldered on thingy in the house,one on a trombone which can´t be dated and one on a Eb rotary tuba which dates back to 1890 ,roughly.............

Happy new year everybody,


Kurt

Yeah... the examples where a trim is soldered directly to the bell-rim that I've seen are obviously VERY old. I'm thinking that it might be a good idea to try in cases where the bell-rim is destroyed. I've made several attempts at re-rolling a bell rim but the results have been marginal.