Tuba intonation tendencies

[Leland]

Sticking my neck out to be the first one to reply --

I have never played an instrument that didn't need some amount of correction.

When I'm trying out tubas, I don't really care about intonation unless I find something really out of whack. Even then, if there are other characteristics that I really like, I'll probably try a few different mouthpieces to see if the first mouthpiece was creating the intonation problem (on a Getzen CC, for example, a Conn Helleberg worked fine, but when I played one with a PT50, the open partials sounded like a blues scale).

Hopefully, though, the hypothetical "horn that I currently play" is already decent enough that I haven't developed a habit of making major corrections that would skew my perception of a new horn that others regard as well-tuned.

It's just that there are a lot of variables besides intonation.

[Rick Denney]

Bingo. Of course, thats the short answer behind "get what works for you"-type advice, BUT the process of "what works" for a given player can be more than simply pushing buttons and watching a tuner's dial indicate its opinion of your sound and intonation

And what works to center the needle might not be what works to be in tune with the ensemble, and vice versa.

In my living room, the D below the staff is right on the money fingered 1-2, and the D on the staff is a bit flat played open. In my band, the low D is a bit sharp (I play it on the third valve if the note is held for more than a second) and the D on the staff is perfect. It could be the band, but I rather think it's the way I respond to the band.

You've pointed out in the past examples of when your teacher played an instrument, declared it wonderful, and then played another instrument, declaring it unplayable. To your ears, both sounded the same. The issue is how much work it takes to get that result. It would appear that the Miraphones in question don't take as much as the players think, or they would all be fighting approximately the same battle.

Rick "not capable of much when it comes to intonation" Denney

[phoenix]

The only pitch that is consistently more than 5-10 cents out of tune is the E in the third space up the staff if fingered open on my Miraphone 1291. The rest of the horn ranges from 5 cents flat to 5 cents sharp.

[ThomasP]

I remember either someone telling me or I over heard a comment made to someone else trying out tubas to remember to play the horn you're playing currently, and don't try and play this horn the way you would your own horn. Example, I play a Willson 3050S the only bad notes are flat g third partial to be exact, I play it in tune because I lip it up, but I have to remember when playing on other horns that the same g doesn't require the same adjustment. Its all spending time with the instrument, I think that you can play about an hour and get a good judgement of intonation. That's just a simple not very scientific guess.

[MartyNeilan]

Every model tuba has slightly different intonation tendencies, with some (many old F's and 6/4 CC's more than others). Every time I get a new horn, I have had to learn a new set of fingerings and or / pulls -- example - some like the second space E 12, some 3. The only tuba I have played in recent years that practically mirrors the fingering chart in the back of every tuba book is... my old Martin BBb BAT. And even that needs a little pulling (but partly from having only 3 valves.) Interestingly, I often tend to play the G's sharp on it and pull a slide on the 12 combination - why - because I am in the habit of pushing that note up on my CC>

[MartyNeilan]

The only pitch that is consistently more than 5-10 cents out of tune is the E in the third space up the staff if fingered open on my Miraphone 1291. The rest of the horn ranges from 5 cents flat to 5 cents sharp.

So do you have to push the first slide in for the D below it (or use the 4th valve as an alternate) or is that D spot on in the normal slide position?

[Dylan King]

In the community band that I play in, one of the tubists just got a new 1291. He's a fantastic player for being a 17 year old chap, but the other tubist and I have been trying to convince him to get used to gluing that left hand on the first valve slide, as I do when playing my Yorkbrunner. He has been playing low A ans middle A sharp, and that ever difficult middle line D flat. With any tuba adjustments must be made. With my Rudy F for example, I don't have to manipulate any slides at all, because alternate fingerings do the trick. A tuner can only give one an idea of pitch correctness, one must learn to adjust with the group in which they are playing.

[Haugan]

All horns seem to have their own.. Arnold Jacobs used to be able to pick up the crappiest out-of-tune tuba at any booth at "The Midwest" and make it play in tune AND make it sound just about as good as his York... If you "feed" the right pitch through the horn, you shouldn't need to do alot of slide pulling. I know saying this will probably piss an awful lot of people off, but it has been my observation for the last 30 years that the guys that pull slides left and right have the worst intonation. Hang on before you fillet me, there ARE notable exceptions and YOUR EARS will tell YOU who they are. If you feed the right pitch through the horn IT (the horn) will EVENTUALLY change for the better in that direction. Even though the're made of metal, their molecular structure can be influenced over time by proper pitch placement - I have horns that people claimed WERE out of tune that they can"t believe are the same horns when they play them 2-10 years later. If you just "let" any horn plays where IT wants to, you can overcompensate with slide pulling and KEEP them out-of-tune or even MAKE THEM WORSE over time. This is certainly a controversial aspect of molecular physics, and DEFIES the way many (some very fine)players approach tuba playing. Reynold Schilke did a series of experiments back in the 60s and 70s where high decibel levels of various pitches were projected electronically through trumpet bells and his conclusions bear out these theories in regard to "breaking in" horns. There is a whole school of thought that asserts that the famous "Stradivarius" are great because they started out as good violins, but were always (for the most part) in the hands of GREAT players who placed the pitches on them properly and over time, they just got better and better. The famous "LA Messe" Strad (a rarely played archival instrument) is said to not play as well as the "Strads" now in circulation despite it's superior condition and lack of wear. Another factor can be mouthpieces. American tubas and American-inspired copies generally play in tune with deep cup or Helleberg-style mouthpieces, while European horns usually respond better when played with the shallower and sometimes smaller mouthpieces that they were most likely designed with.... Mouthpieces are today for the most part much larger than was originally intended for use with like instruments. That is not to say that it is impossible to play in tune with the larger mouthpieces, but in the past these similar instruments might not have been so tempermental. Do your own experimentation, reach your own conclusions- simply a different viewpoint. tatakata, Paulo

[CJ Krause]

***

[Haugan]

I am not sure who has data now.. Perhaps Scott Laskey could be of some help. I was told this in discussion with Sckilke. Alot of the data from his different studies was never published and closely guarded by the "Old Man" Schilke's daughter Joan may have some other may still be "trade secret"

[Alan Baer]

Hi,
I've been watching this thread and can't stand it anymore.
As a Miraphone artist that has worked many hours in the development of the 1291, I am here to say that NO tuba plays in tune.... I don't care how much you pay for the horn No horn plays perfectly in tune. I am saddened to think that tubist are believing that one can play the instrument without pushing and pulling slides. EVERY tuba has intonation tendencies and how those tendencies work or don't work within a specific key will determine if we are pushing and pulling. Yes, one can "lip" the horn to correct these intonation problems. BUT, what happens when you lip the horn? YOU CHANGE THE SOUND!
Now I may be going out on a limb here, but do you really want to change the sound every time there is an intonation adjustment? I would think that one would sound like three to four tubist going up and down a scale..
The tendencies that I have found with the 1291 are as follows:
C in the staff to low C should be pretty close. Provided your using the correct mouthpiece. Please use a Euro shank!
E in the staff will be Low (like all Miraphones) use 1-2 and pull
G at three bottom of the staff is a bit low, (like all Miraphones)
Eb in the staff 2nd valve is low, use 2-3
Ab at the top of the staff is a bit high use 2-3 (I have combined Eb and Ab here to show that the 3rd slide of the horn will be out about 1 inch, that's the way it is designed) This will allow the 2-3 combo to work on Eb and Ab.
Db as on ANY horn is sharp (2-4) pull on 4th slide.
Yes you can use 523 BUT all these horns are designed to play with the least amount of valves down, 523 is not as friendly in most cases.
Low Gb 2-4 is sharp., out with the 4th slide, Here is where thre 523 can be used, but I still think it changes the sound of the horn. Pull a bit more than you did on Db.
Any 1-2 combo will be high (like on any horn) pull please.
D in the staff is flat on just about any C tuba in with the first.

I'm not saying that you will NEVER lip the instrument, We all must do that to a degree, BUT if we can get closer with a slide and limit the lipping the sound does not change as much AND we miss less notes.
To check the intonation of your horn set up a Drone. A DB88 works well, or a key board set on organ with the C taped down. Start playing a scale against that drone and do what you EAR tells you. Screw the tuner. You should only be using that to set the open horn anyway, (and that is not even perfect!)
You will soon see where your horn is not matching the drone.
After you have discovered where the problems are, try droning to a tune. Try Meistersinger, 1st section to C the second section to G. Now you are using the intonation of the horn within the line. So in C maj. the flat E in the staff works playing it open in C maj... So all of you playing 1-2 and not using the slide, what key are you playing it?
I hope I have not offended anyone with this but those who have taken the time to try this agree that it works....
I'll get off the box now.
Al

_________________

[Getzeng50s]

cha ching.

[TubaRay]

I know I'm not even about to argue with Alan's comments. I'm just happy we have people of his caliber who read and add their comments. Thanks, Alan.

[Dylan King]

I absolutely agree with Alan's comments. Yes, intonation is in the ear and out emouchure vocal chords have to naturally adjust for any ensemble. But NO tuba is in tune standing as a mechanical device. Slide pulling is something a tubist must make second nature. When playing trombone, the positions are not thought about, but come automatically. It should be so with pulling slides on the tuba as well. Once a player is comfortable with his particular instrument, it should becaome automatic.

The horn must become an extension of the ear. That includes your lip and extra hands for slides.

[Lew]

...
To check the intonation of your horn set up a Drone. A DB88 works well, or a key board set on organ with the C taped down. Start playing a scale against that drone and do what you EAR tells you. Screw the tuner. You should only be using that to set the open horn anyway, (and that is not even perfect!)
You will soon see where your horn is not matching the drone.
After you have discovered where the problems are, try droning to a tune. Try Meistersinger, 1st section to C the second section to G. Now you are using the intonation of the horn within the line. So in C maj. the flat E in the staff works playing it open in C maj... So all of you playing 1-2 and not using the slide, what key are you playing it?
...
Al

I can see how listening to match pitch is more like the real world situation. When playing this is exactly what one must do. But, I wonder of those who have done this and then compared with what the tuner says, how much was the playing off vs. just using the tuner? I do notice that when I play in an ensemble I have to pull the slides differently from what the tuner would tell me when practicing. Why would this be?

[Jay Bertolet]

I can see how listening to match pitch is more like the real world situation. When playing this is exactly what one must do. But, I wonder of those who have done this and then compared with what the tuner says, how much was the playing off vs. just using the tuner? I do notice that when I play in an ensemble I have to pull the slides differently from what the tuner would tell me when practicing. Why would this be?

Because of the acoustics of tonal music and the intonation tendencies inherent to the tonal scale. A tuner will only tell you what the relative intonation of a given note is compared to equal temperament, much like a piano. But when the tones of, say, a major chord are in your ears in the ensemble, you adjust your pitch automatically to make the chord tone you're playing fit into the structure so it's in tune, both with the ensemble pitch level and the overall tonality. Or at least you should adjust automatically. Doing so with the slides or alternate fingerings, and not with the embouchure, is the way you get good intonation and have a consistent sound throughout your range.

[Leland]

... But when the tones of, say, a major chord are in your ears in the ensemble, you adjust your pitch automatically to make the chord tone you're playing fit into the structure so it's in tune, both with the ensemble pitch level and the overall tonality. Or at least you should adjust automatically.

This is why, in ensembles with average talent or less, some chords sound more in tune than others. A Bb major chord sounds great in a typical brass section because, for the most part, the instruments' intonation tendencies also happen to be off in the same way that a major chord is off from equal temperament. Other chords, namely chords based in other partials, need some amount of adjustment to sound as good.

[Haugan]

Gosh Al, why all the decorum all of a sudden? You've never worried about offending me in the past.......

[Haugan]

In all fairness, Alan Baer's post is a pretty good template for tuning nearly any German tuba. Not everyone who changes pitch on a tuba without pulling slides "lips" the pitches to change them. There are internal functions that that can allow for some degree of pitch change without changing the sound or disturbing the integrity of the embouchure.
For a definitive answer to the question "What are the intonational tendencies of the tuba, and how can they be corrected?" see Mr. Baer's response and disregard my post. As to the subject of playing the tuba in tune, there are different approaches and thoughts that should be examined and put to use in each person's different situation.

[Leland]

I'd rather move slides than lip pitches around. There's less of a tendency for me to frack that way, and some days I need as much help as I can get.

All the other brasses move slides (French hornists move their hand for the same result), so why can't the tubas & euphs?