TO BUZZ OR NOT TO BUZZ ?

[ubq]

Dear TubeNet,

I have the following questions:
1. If you buzz on the mouthpiece, how do you do it properly? I'm asking it 'cause I've recognised that if I'm buzzing a second space C on the mouthpice and I move the mouthpiece during the buzz into the leadpipe of my tuba, the sound suddenly becomes almost a fifth lower... Whats the cause? I'm doing bending exercises on the mouthpiece (produces a nice resonant sound) but the feeling is different as when I'm playing on the tuba.

2. Do you (muthpiece) buzz at all? As long as I know, for example Christian Lindberg prefers not to buzz, 'beacuse of the above mentioned. (sound is deifferent during the buzz as on the instrument).

What do you think?

thank you!

[MaryAnn]

The pitch drops because the resistance of the instrument is so much more than the resistance of the mouthpiece, and you have to do "more" to get that pitch on the instrument. Some people advocate putting a finger over the end of the shank to partially block it (and increase the resistance,) and some advocate getting a piece of plastic tubing to put over the shank for the same reason.

I think mouthpiece glisses can be beneficial for getting over embouchure "breaks," but you probably need to do something to get the resistance of the mouthpiece closer to what you will encounter playing the tuba.

You'll find the opposite, BTW, if you play a pitch on the tuba and then manage to remove the mouthpiece while you're still buzzing. If you're not playing a really low note, the pitch will jump up when you pull out the mouthpiece, because of the suddenly-lowered resistance.

MA, hoping Rick doesn't chime in and prove her to be in left field

[Frank Byrne]

Arnold Jacobs was a strong proponent of buzzing. If you want the sensation of buzzing in proximity to normal playing position, I recommend the use of the BERP or similar device. Jacobs recommended buzzing away from the instrument, and strongly recommended buzzing very familiar songs v. drills. The stimulus of buzzing very familiar songs gives you a strong musical message to reflect on the mouthpiece, and it is possible to get a very good tone quality with buzzing, and this both increases air flow and makes one more accurate in buzzing the pitch that is in your head. Jacobs also recommended buzzing at a fairly robust dynamic level, and this makes playing with the horn a more relaxed situation. I believe buzzing also creates efficiency in the vibration of the embouchure.

[pierso20]

I have noticed the same thing a few years ago.

HOWEVER, after a few more years of playing, that has gone away and I tend to buzz the exact pitch I play. This leads me to believe that it is probably a strength and resistance issue. I remember that when I was younger, I could barely make buzzing on a mouthpiece because of the lack of resistance, but could make okay noises on the tuba. As I got older, the mouthpiece buzzes became easier and easier. Eventually, which is now, I can buzz the exact pitch, slide it into the horn and then play what I was buzzing. I think that getting used to the mouthpiece buzzes will help this for you.

I advocate sliding your pinky over the end slightly. This will help with the accuracy, and also immensely help your lower register buzzing. As you do this, you can move your pinky slightly and the sound will begin to this. When this happens, try to focus your air to a much smaller point, rather than filling the cup. I noticed that when the air is more focused, your mouthpice buzzing is helped, and of course focused air is what we need to do anyway.

Try some different things, but really...don't worry about it too much. After all, who cares if you can play a song on a mouthpiece if you sound wonderful on the tuba...(though, if you sound wonderful on the tuba, I'll bet you can buzz the song on your mouthpiece).

Cheers

[eupher61]

If the pitch changes by a 5th into the horn, you're probably not buzzing a pitch that matches the length of the pipe--IOW, you need to match the buzz to the valves!

My approach is that the horn, no matter what brass instrument, is purely an amplifier. Everything starts with the buzz. If you can't place the pitch on the mouthpiece, it won't be clear in the horn, no matter how many valves you mash down.

[Rick Denney]

I have noticed the same thing a few years ago.

HOWEVER, after a few more years of playing, that has gone away and I tend to buzz the exact pitch I play. This leads me to believe that it is probably a strength and resistance issue.

That describes my experience perfectly. The first time I buzzed the mouthpiece (in my first lesson with Mike Sanders in, oh, about 1985), I had to hold the tip of my little finger over the end of the shank to get the needed resistance. But that wasn't to make the pitch come out correct--that was to make the pitch come out at all. Once I was able to get the buzz started, it was only my ears that controlled the pitch.

Now, I can buzz a consistent pitch while moving the mouthpiece into and out of the receiver. I may be adjusting my embouchure as I do it to maintain pitch, but that's part of the reason for the exercise.

Rick "for whom buzzing exposes fundamental faults immediately" Denney

[pierso20]

Rick "for whom buzzing exposes fundamental faults immediately" Denney

It's amazing how different perspective changes as we become more mature players....for the longest time, I thought it was the mouthpiece and tuba relationship and tried to believe I couldn't have been the problem......now I have come to realize that a fracked note is a fracked buzz...and who is responsible for the buzz??

[ztuba]

Try getting a screw rim mouthpiece and buzzing on just the rim ... you have to buzz properly or it wont let you buzz at all! then buzz on just the mouthpiece... it is good practice and helps develop a strong buzz. Another thing I have discovered recently is the metal slurpee straws from 7-11. They cost a buck and they fit right into the end of tuba mouthpieces... now even tuba players can enjoy the benefits of leadpipe buzzing like our friends in the trumpet and trombone worlds. You get a lot of oral feedback and a very violent buzz when buzzing on the straw... very good for fast warm ups when you don't have time.

[Roger Lewis]

But, just how much sound does a tuba make - without a player buzzing? The buzz is the MOST important thing you do. Finding the right balance between air and embouchure helps build a strong buzz that saves air and promotes a good sound.

Remember that there is a symbiotic relationship between the air and the embouchure - neither one by itrself can produce the buzz. BUT they are not equal - it is AIR over embouchure. Efficiency of the air with good quality of sound. That's what we are all working for.

Just my $0.02 for what it's worth.

Roger

[pierso20]

I have never liked buzzing. I feel it is a waste of time after 7th grade. My main argument against it is that no matter how much you think the tuba is just an "amplifier", it IS different to play a tuba than to just buzz on a mouthpiece.

After all, you can't be a mouthpiece major.

Do you not like it because you're good at it? So good that you have no need for it? It is different to play on the tuba, however, the buzzing is required to create notes. If you can play with a strong sound and accuracy on your mouthpiece, then it transfers over to the tuba. Without trying to sound too agitated, which I am not, maybe you should spend more time on a mouthpiece. It definitely won't hurt your playing. And also keep in mind, that not everything that makes us better is enjoyable.

[Alex C]

Arnold Jacobs was a strong proponent of buzzing. If you want the sensation of buzzing in proximity to normal playing position, I recommend the use of the BERP or similar device.

I think your response was excellent except for the BERP. I have tried to justify the BERP with Mr. Jacobs teaching and nothing he said that I am aware of would encourage adding additional resistance to the mouthpiece.

In lessons where I buzzed and let my pinkie finger slip over the edge into the airstream, he stopped and had me move it out of the way. It was a habit that I acquired as an undergrad.

As to the original post, no one can tell you what is going on with your buzzing/instrument pitch discrepancey without sitting beside you. There are a number of potential issues including the angle of the mouthpiece, improper air support and others. If you want to understand the relationship between buzzing and playing, you need to have a lesson with someone who already understands it.

[Rick Denney]

In lessons where I buzzed and let my pinkie finger slip over the edge into the airstream, he stopped and had me move it out of the way. It was a habit that I acquired as an undergrad.

For clarity: When Mike allowed me to cheat with my little finger, it was because my buzz was so weak that I could not produce a buzz at all. Not much time passed before I no longer needed it--indeed, the buzzing exposed the problem in the first place. He made it clear and I acknowledged that using the extra restriction was cheating.

As to the original post, no one can tell you what is going on with your buzzing/instrument pitch discrepancey without sitting beside you. There are a number of potential issues including the angle of the mouthpiece, improper air support and others. If you want to understand the relationship between buzzing and playing, you need to have a lesson with someone who already understands it.

Absolutely. Buzzing is a useful diagnostic tool, but so is a stethoscope. Despite that the stethoscope is so useful that all doctors have one around their necks at all times, I would not be able to make good use of one to diagnose any disease of which I might suffer, save death.

Rick "who has a pulse but isn't too sure beyond that" Denney

[pierso20]

What if one is able to play with a strong sound and accuracy on the tuba WITHOUT having to work on mouthpiece buzzing?

I know there are/were several teachers who praised buzzing. Arnold Jacobs seeming to be the one that keeps being mentioned. There are also those who think it's a waste of time past a certain point. There are even those who have said buzzing is stupid. Don't ask who because I'm not going to tell. They are folks I've studied with, some folks I've wanted to study with, and one who I'm sure everyone has heard of..if you listen to ANY kind of trombone.

If buzzing works for you, that is great..a very sincere "more power to you." Buzzing has never been a part of my routine/regimen and I've never suffered for it.

I am not going to argue with different people because there are valid opinions as to the use of buzzing. I also don't necessarily think you need to spend a great deal of time buzzing. I would say though, buzzing on the mouthpiece can be a way to identify faults in ones playing. Does this mean we need to buzz all the time? Not necessarily. We can be very accurate and good players without ever having done mouthpiece buzzing. However, I tend to think that we can use our buzzing on a mouthpiece to really see how accurate we can be. After all, there is no forgiveness without the "amplifier". Mouthpiece buzzing is a tool, one of many to ensure our playing is the best we can/desire make it. Do we need to use all these tools? Nope. Should we? Well, they're useful.

That's all I'm saying.

*edit*

For clarity: When Mike allowed me to cheat with my little finger, it was because my buzz was so weak that I could not produce a buzz at all. Not much time passed before I no longer needed it--indeed, the buzzing exposed the problem in the first place.

Exactly, what I was suggesting.

[Frank Byrne]

Regarding Alex's comment:
I think your response was excellent except for the BERP. I have tried to justify the BERP with Mr. Jacobs teaching and nothing he said that I am aware of would encourage adding additional resistance to the mouthpiece.

Please let me clarify. Mr. Jacobs had a device that went into the receiver and then the mp went in. It allowed you to buzz and finger the horn, but with NO RESISTANCE at all. Years later when the BERP came out and I got one, I drilled extra holes to ensure there was no resistance and it is that experience I meant to convey.

Any time I have seen a student using a similar adjustable advice with resistance dialed in, I've recommended they do it without any resistance. So in that respect, I agree entirely.

[Monstertuba]

The need for mouthpiece buzzing can be summarized by understanding a concept that is active in a myriad of different performance fields. The concept is 'train hard, fight easy'. Buzzing the mouthpiece by itself is not supposed to feel like it does when you're playing the instrument, at least not in terms of resistance. The instrument is a very efficient resonator. The mouthpiece is NOT. The practice then of using the inefficient resonator (the mouthpiece with no resistance) forces you to train harder so that when you put the mouthpiece in the efficient resonator (the tuba) it will be much easier to play accurately, and cleanly. When Baseball players put weights on their bats or pick up and swing three bats at once they are employing the same concept. When they put down the three bats and step up to the plate, the one bat is much lighter and a much more efficient swinging tool. Using these tools both baseball players and tuba players develop more fully the muscles that will be used when they go into 'battle' (fight easy). It also follows that the better the buzz, or the more powerfully you can swing three bats, the better and more acurate the tuba sound.

To the OP: I do not see the practical use of buzzing a note and then while buzzing, putting the mouthpiece into the tuba for the very reasons mentioned above. They are not supposed to feel the same. (I suppose if you want to get technical there may be a practical use in doing that exercise at elementary school concerts when demonstrating how to make a sound on a brass instrument. ) As inherited from my most recent teacher of tuba I employ the tool of mouthpiece buzzing, and rim buzzing (via mouthpiece visualizer) in what I feel are two very effective uses. The first and most important for me is in my daily warm-up, where I buzz in a pattern on each note from low C chromatically down to pedal C, (with tone generator in hand). This is the second thing I do in my warm-up and I do it before I've played a note on the efficient resonator. By the time I get to pedal C I am very loose and picking up and playing the tuba is incredibly easy. The second use, I really use the visualizer more for but if you don't have one you can use the mouthpiece, and that use is working on immediacy of response in terms of articulation and centering on specific notes in pieces I'm working on. If you think the mouthpiece is inefficient try just the rim with a visualizer.

[ztuba]

Watch this to get the final clue.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtOa7Pw2VZ0" target="_blank" target="_blank



Why say stuff when we can all just let someone who said it better and demonstrated it... say it for us. If you watch this and are not 100% convinced of the many uses of off horn buzzing ... then no one can help ... except maybe this from Jake himself warning us all from taking it too far.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqTUwX0OVpM" target="_blank

[Alex C]

I know there are/were several teachers who praised buzzing. Arnold Jacobs seeming to be the one that keeps being mentioned. There are also those who think it's a waste of time past a certain point. There are even those who have said buzzing is stupid.

Don't ask who because I'm not going to tell.

Quoting an anonymous source as an authority is very convenient but utterly unconvincing.

[brianf]

Mr Jacobs always had students buzz on the mouthpiece. He did want a little resistance but not a lot. The original BERP's holes were to small making high resistance. He liked the concept of it but hated the high resistance. I brought him the delrin Buzz Aids and he still thought there was to much resistance. He told me to drill out another hole. When I brought it back to him he liked it. That is the way I have the Buzz aids today - with two holes for less resistance. I was not about to argue with Mr Jacobs on this one!

[Rick Denney]

I believe that buzzing a mouthpiece (with no added resistance) and playing a tuba are related but not the same exact skills.

I would relate buzzing a mouthpiece (with no added resistance) to playing at fortissisimo (or however it is spelled).

I'd be willing to wager that there are some *very* fine players out there who - right off the bat (without practice) - can't control a mouthpiece buzz (without added resistance) very well.

On the first two points, I agree. In my case, it's not a daily routine, but if I'm not happy with what I'm doing, a little buzzing exposes a lot of truth in a hurry. One thing is certainly true about buzzing a mouthpiece--you must move air and you must have a strong embouchure to get a good, energetic buzz on pitch.

On your third point, I'm NOT so sure. I suppose it depends on what you mean by "very well". At last year's Army Conference, Ray and I were chatting with an old friend of mine. I knew him from my Austin days, but Ray had just met him. We were chatting about things, and to demonstrate some point I've now forgotten, my friend pulled a mouthpiece out of his pocket and ripped off a Bb arpeggio, bang on pitch. This guy is a wonderful player but that's not how he earned grocery money before retirement. I could not do that the way he did--no way--and that inability describes my weak embouchure as much as anything. But he is a much better player than I am, and his ability to do it demonstrated a strong embouchure and a good set of ears. I doubt seriously that he practices it. I'd be surprised if most working pros could not do that.

But, again, it depends on the definition of "very well". In the recorded 1973 Jacobs master class, he demonstrated buzzing using a mouthpiece rim, and again through a mouthpiece, as a demonstration of the role of the buzz in the final sound. His pitch wandered a bit, which was not relevant to the point he was making. Maybe that was the point you were making.

Rick "who doesn't practice music only on the mouthpiece" Denney

[Alex C]

I know there are/were several teachers who praised buzzing. Arnold Jacobs seeming to be the one that keeps being mentioned. There are also those who think it's a waste of time past a certain point. There are even those who have said buzzing is stupid.

Don't ask who because I'm not going to tell.

Quoting an anonymous source as an authority is very convenient but utterly unconvincing.

I can understand that. I didn't want to mention names because I wouldn't want someone out there thinking less of a person because they do not agree with what most think. I'll leave this topic alone from here.

Under this condition it might have been better not to say it at all.

I don't think there is a successful brass player (note that I didn't necessarily include teacher) who thinks buzzing the mouthpiece is "stupid." There may be the rare performer who doesn't buzz (Bill Watros comes to mind as a possibility) but they recognize buzzing as common among other successful players.

So, to buzz or not to buzz? Buzz on.