Quick transitions from trombone to tuba

[GJDavis1]

Hi all,

I play in the jazz ensemble at my school, and I decided to play trombone in it as I figured it would be a great secondary instrument to learn.

Anyway, I'm having some trouble getting back into the flow of playing tuba for at least a few hours after playing big band stuff on trombone for 2 hours. This has become a problem as recitals are on the same day as jazz rehearsals, and I don't want to get stuck having to cram a warm-down into a 10 minute time frame. Does anyone have any good exercises that I can use after a jazz session to help settle back in to my tuba chops? Maybe part of my problem is that I use a different embouchure for trombone than for tuba, but any help you guys could give me would be great.

Thanks!

[Mark]

Alan Baer sells a book entitled Cross Training Scales for Tuba. The idea in the book is to play the descending parts of the scales on the contrabass tuba and the ascending parts of the scales on the bass tuba -- switching back and forth between each tuba.

I wonder is something similar for tuba and trombone would work for you?

[Tuba Guy]

I am completely with you on this. My freshman year, my band director had me learn bass trombone (on a King 5b...which if you know trombones, isn't a bass bone...it's a tenor with F, or as I called it, the "poser bass trombone"). One day, after practicing bone for about an hour the night before, I couldn't play my tuba's low Bb (and that was a sweet note on the horn...one of those old warhorse Besson Bellfront compensatings). I had to go outside and work my range back down.
After that, I worked on switching back and forth (and fooled around with both at the same time). You need to remember that each instrument is a different animal and should be treated as such. Also, remember to give your chops a little break (15 seconds or so of no playing, and then maybe a little buzzing on the mouthpiece of the next horn).
You will get comfortable with the changing. I mean, at this point, I can go CC contrabass tuba in the low range to trumpet double D in less than a minute...or with my real instruments, I can do tuba to bass bone in the time that it takes to put one down and pick up the other. Even today in jazz band, I had no problems switching between a 16c(?) small shank bone mouthpiece on my valve bone to a Marcinkewitz Rickenbach. Your mouth will get used to the different sizes.
What trombone setup are you using?

[tubashaman2]

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[eupher61]

It's about air. The trombone has a lot, LOT, less restriction in the airflow than does the tuba. I'm not sure how to tell you to do it, but you have to get around that difference. It's not a purely mental thing, it's quite physical, so you have to learn to adapt.

Also, be sure you warm up on tuba early in the day, before you play any trombone. It will help with the air thing a bit, in my experience, but also it keeps priorities straight!

[tbn.al]

I've been doubling for 6 or 7 years and I still have problems. My primary horn is bass trombone. Sometimes I switch during a performance or even during a piece. Specifically, what kind of problems do you have and when exactly do you have them. For instance, my main problem has always been fracking an entrance or even getting on the wrong partial after a long rest or at the beginning of a piece.

[MartyNeilan]

You basically have to build up two different sets of chops. No shortcuts; this will take time. The eventual reward is that you will be able to pick up a tuba, play it, put it down, pick up a trombone, play it, and vice versa.
Do not try to play a bass trombone with a tuba mouthpiece. Period. Tuning will be bad, sound will be worse. Get something like a Bach 1 1/2 G or Schilke 58-59. Anything bigger and you will loose a lot of the "bass trombone edge" you want in a jazz band.
Don't try to blow a trombone like you blow a tuba. Two very different instruments, and they should be treated as such.
Slide - take the time to learn the positions (and remember that they vary slightly note to note.) Do not try to use valves as a shortcut to poor slide technique.
Don't fight the double trigger notes. The harder you fight them, the more the horn will fight you back on those notes. Open up and relax and marvel at the sound that comes out.
Take some lessons from a good trombone player. In hindsight, I didn't know my brains from my elbow on trombone until I spent a year taking lessons from the local symphony pro.

[lgb&dtuba]

I agree about building your chops. I play tuba, euphonium and tenor trombone. I treat them as 3 completely separate and different instruments. I usually concentrate on just one of them during a practice session but try to play each at least once during a week.

It definitely takes time, but after a while you will have developed your embouchure, breath support, etc. on each to the point that you can pretty much switch at will. You will also have to develop completely different sound concepts depending on the type of music you play. For example, jazz or big band trombone is different from symphonic trombone. I don't do classical music (as a rule) and so even tuba and euph will have different sound/tone concepts (from classical). I have to keep after all 3 instruments to do them well.

Breath support is as much an issue as embouchure for me. If I don't practice trombone as much as I should then I have trouble getting rid of excess air.

Normally I will just switch off between euphonium and trombone during a set where it's not too radical a switch. But at least once or twice a year I will have to alternate between tuba and trombone/euph in different sets in really long jobs. By that I mean 6-8 45 minute sets in a day.

For me, the beginning of September though the end of November is Oktoberfest season and I'll put in 2-3 hours per practice session 3-4 times a week starting in early August and then 2-3 hours a couple of times per week outside of weekly band practice and actual jobs. It's all about stamina for me. Luckily, that stamina is what makes it possible to switch between instruments easily.

No short cuts, sorry. Practice, practice, practice.

[MaryAnn]

I agree that it's about air, and I agree that it's about chops. I have a harder time going from tuba to horn, than going from horn to tuba. My biggest problem with going to CC from horn is that I tend to try to push too much air into it all at once, and that causes it to "bark." I have to remember to put more air, but slower, into the CC to get it to work. In comparison it is a "wide, thick" air column for the tuba. I'd assume it is a similar type of difference between tbone and tuba.

Over time, you'll be able to change the chop function readily as you go from instrument to instrument, but it may take a while. Part of it is mental, remembering, so to speak, what instrument you've got on your face. Using a different embouchure isn't really the problem; it's remembering what embouchure it is you're needing to use at the moment. I found that my lips are more compressed playing horn, and that it is hard for me to go from tuba to horn because my lips feel swelled up after tuba; going the other way isn't really a problem.

I gave up doubling with horn and euph because the air supply was too similar and playing euph caused me to frack notes on the horn. Horn was way more important to me so the euph went by the wayside. Tuba and horn air supply are so different that it doesn't cause that kind of problem.

MA

[ztuba]

Play bass bone and get a huge mouthpiece like a Loud LM-30. Do all your bass bone work with a tuba embouchure, I know plenty of guys that double on bass bone in jazz bands... It shouldn't be any more difficult than learning tenor tuba for Bydlo. Just have to practice. I know my only reservation is in dedicating the time to learn good slide technique. 4 life

[David Schwartz]

Many of us who double in ensembles have discovered that our good habits on each instrument return surprisingly quickly and easily. It is as though the feel of each instrument brings back the necessary embouchure, breathing and articulation approach each instrument requires. It will help if you can do some back and forth switching in an ensemble a few times. that will build confidence. But don't wait until after two hours; fatigue will slow your progress. If you're playing bottom part in the jazz trombone section, see if there's a number or two on which tuba would be acceptable at rehearsals. You'll discover you can switch more easily than you think. You'll find you don't have to alter mouthpiece choices as a crutch, but can do well on the equipment you like. As for exercises, quickest adaptation is helped by scales and arpeggios in all keys, Arban style, accompanied by recordings or drones or a metronome. Check out the Michael Davis 20 Minute Warm-Up books or my own Breakfast play-along booklet. Have fun.