Doping

[Dylan King]

Take it easy.
Relax.
Nobody is listening but you.
Think about your horn and how it shines.

And how it is a miracle that you can make this thing resonate the way it does.

If you're nervous, you don't want it enough. You have to grab the sound and throw it full force into that audience! Do not have any hesitation! It can lead to butterflies. You must be strong and feel the power of the massive brass in your arms. You could throw it in the crowd and injure or kill them, but you are going to use that power to fill them with sound.

Think tough. Even if you mess the whole concert up, the chicks will still dig the attitude.

And if you get real nervous before a concert, come onto the stage holding a flute and try to make a sound on it. But look nervous. Like you are messing it all up. The crowd won't know what to think. When they start to react, throw the flute offstage to the stage hand and have them lower the tuba into your lap from the rafters. That always puts me in the right spirit to begin a recital.

[corbasse]

Well, since giving aspirin to children may kill them under certain circumstances (e.g Reyes Syndrome); I would think that a teacher should be fired for suggesting a student use it. Teachers are not doctors.

Reference: http://www.reyessyndrome.org/aspirin.htm

I agree if either
1) the student is a minor, or
2) the teacher could be aware of the problem in the case of that particular student, or
3) the medicine is forced down the pupils throat.

Otherwise: come on! If saying to someone with a headache "why don't you take an aspirine?" can get you into trouble, I will lock myself into my house, and not speak to another soul again.

[WoodSheddin]

Everything that I can find indicates that propanolol (Inderal) isn't FDA-approved for anxiety attacks; This is a heart medication.

http://www.mhsource.com/expert/exp1112596d.html

The above URL should help to clear up the confusion regarding FDA approved usages for medications and physicians prescribing them for alternative purposes.

[Mudman]

Disclaimer: I'm not a physician, nor do I play one on TV.
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I'm assuming that there are relatively few people who take propanolol for anxiety control before every performance. But what happens if you're one such person and you find that you've lost your supply just before a gig? Would you play anyway? Is it the pill that makes you able to perform? Does this bother you?
---------------------------

My observations of the professional playing scene lead me to believe that as many as 50% of working players use or have used inderal. (This evidence is purely anecdotal and is not an accurate statistic.) Most people who take beta blockers do not openly discuss it.

Some people take beta blockers for every gig, right down to the smallest church performance. Others I know only use beta blockers when they have an exposed solo on a tough concert.

Those who use beta blockers regularly are able to play without the medication. Performance while using the drug sounds more relaxed, controlled and has a more even tone (no wobbles).

I would only recommend beta blockers to an adult student if they had exhausted all other options (desensitization through repeated performance, breathing exercises, memorization, physical exercise, eating bananas.)

Some people are just high strung. There are stories of many famous musicians who would puke backstage before a performance. That isn't healthy. Nor is drinking a martini before each concert and during intermission to calm one's nerves (like a big-name tuba player who used to be president of TUBA). Some of these players have valuable contributions to make to the world of music.

In many cases, beta blockers are an excellent answer to uncontrollable physical problems.

[ThomasDodd]

I see. If I cannot do my chosen profession without the aid of chemical enhancements, I should get the chemicals instead of changing my profesion.

Since I cannot build muscle mass quickly enough, nor maintain it, I should take chemicals to help me so that I can play football.

I get stage fright when speaking before more that 3 people. So I should take chemicals so that I can be an actor.

Or perhaps I should be an electrical engineer where I don't need chemicals to do my job.

[WoodSheddin]

I see. If I cannot do my chosen profession without the aid of chemical enhancements, I should get the chemicals instead of changing my profesion.

Since I cannot build muscle mass quickly enough, nor maintain it, I should take chemicals to help me so that I can play football.

I get stage fright when speaking before more that 3 people. So I should take chemicals so that I can be an actor.

Or perhaps I should be an electrical engineer where I don't need chemicals to do my job.

I am getting the feeling that you savor the argument more than the discussion.

From your "contribution" I can assume that you did not suffer from dehabilitating performance anxiety during your successful auditions/performances so you never had a need. Therefore, you have no idea of what you are castigating. This is obvious from the fanciful contentions you are throwing out.

The medication being discussed treats medical conditions. To belittle someone else simply because you don't share their condition is about as elitest as I have ever seen.

Save your diatribe for the political forums. It is not tolerated here.

[ThomasDodd]

I am getting the feeling that you savor the argument more than the discussion.

I do enjoy a lively discussion most days.

From your "contribution" I can assume that you did not suffer from dehabilitating performance anxiety during your successful auditions/performances so you never had a need. Therefore, you have no idea of what you are castigating. This is obvious from the fanciful contentions you are throwing out.

No actually those are true. I tried football and never could build the muscle mass to be effective. I eat large amounts of food t5hat should cause weight gain, but I stay 5'9" and 145 lbs. My max weight was 160 when I left Parris Island, and was back down to 145 in 2 months. I am not built to play football as much as I enjoy it. I could take stuff to increase mas, but belive God had other plans for me.

I have tried theater, and do get stage fright. I cannot breather and my voice looses all power. In normal situations my voice carries too well, and have to actively keep it down. That why theater was suggested.

I have similar problems for auditions and solo work. Hence I didn't make the Drum Corps, and became a Radar Tech. I do well in a group, so marching with 18 other tubas wan't a problem. In a concert setting I do ok with 2 or 3 other tubas. I tried trombone in Jazz bands buy never could do the solo work. I'm fine playin the 2nd or 3rd part with others, but cannot stand uop and play with attention focused on me.

I found a job I like and that I can do. I sit at a computer and work mostly alone. I almost never give presentations in person. My recent trip to train people in Inda was rough. The first few days I was standiong in from of 10 people I diidn't know trying to explain stuff. It didn't go well. Later days I had a smaller group, and got to know the people. That went better. But I still have trouble with more that 2 or 3 people watching me.

Dibilitating? Not in the settings I confine myself to. But I have no idea what would happen if the audience was 100 or more. I have no desire to find out either.

[WoodSheddin]

I am not built to play football as much as I enjoy it. I could take stuff to increase mas, but belive God had other plans for me.

I have seen the comparison between steroids and beta blockers made before, but it is always made by those on the sidelines who have not had a need for beta blockers or have chosen to never obtain a prescription for them if they could benefit. I will make an assumption that you are in either category.

I have witnessed individuals who have used both. I have also read the discussions of the dangerous side effects of using steroids over a prolonged period of time in order to increase muscle mass. Beta blockers are not used in the same way. Beta blockers are taken only just before the performance in order to calm the racing heart and control the shakes.

Steroids are taken over an extended period to artificially enhance the fundemental muscle mass of an athlete. Beta blockers are not taken that way and do not enhance the musical performance, physically or mentally, from that which was obtained from hours spent wood shedding. If anything Inderal actually has a side effect in many of emotionally deadening a performance compared to what may have been happening in the practice room. This side effect is nowhere near as severe as the physical conditions associated with performance anxiety, so the trade off is worth it.

Steroids accellerate an athlete's muscle buildup with less training. Only hard preparation and years of dedication will make winning an audition or performing a world class recital possible. The beta blockers simply help to cut down on the shakes during the actual performance/audition. Inderal is not Viagra for the chops.

Most musicians who have prescriptions for Inderal aren't popping them everyday in order to get through rehearsals and concerts. Of the people who I know who use it, they might take it 3 times a year and then only a 10-15mg dosage.

[Mudman]

I have tried theater, and do get stage fright. I cannot breather and my voice looses all power. In normal situations my voice carries too well, and have to actively keep it down. That why theater was suggested.

For argument's sake, what if you were driven to become an actor. You loved acting more than anything else. You studied with the best actors alive, read every article, spent hours browsing ActNet , and did everything you could be to become a great actor. In front of the mirror, you were even more convincing than Anthony Hopkins.

No matter what you did, however, your knees shook whenever you set foot on stage, and you developed a stammer. Nobody was willing to offer you a job and you had to resort to greeting at WalMart.

Should you give up your dream of acting, or look for a way to make it work?

If taking aspirin were the cure, most people would take the aspirin. It turns out that propranolol or inderal have fewer side effects than aspirin, when taken in the tiny doses used by musicians. People with high blood pressure take several hundred mg daily, every day of their life. Musicians usually take 10-20 mg once every few weeks.

I can see an argument against relying on chemical aid, but safe beta-blocking drugs are not in the same category as heroin, cocaine, or alcohol.

You would be surprised to find out that professional quarterbacks also use inderal to eliminate shakes. You just won't hear them discuss it in public.

The title of this post "DOPING" suggests an unfair chemical advantage given to some musicians. Inderal does not grant any extra musical ability. It just takes away the effects of excess adrenaline, allowing the performer to play in a normal, relaxed state.

A friend of mine has nerves of steel. He is fearless in performance, and a stunning performer. Turns out he has high blood pressure and has to take several hundred mgs of inderal daily--So that's his secret! Kidding--he has done the work and is a great player to begin with.

[ThomasDodd]

Most musicians who have prescriptions for Inderal aren't popping them everyday in order to get through rehearsals and concerts. Of the people who I know who use it, they might take it 3 times a year and then only a 10-15mg dosage.

So be it. But I disagree with it using it.

Treating a problem the hinder your live in a sever way is one thing. So people that suffer panic attacks, or hother problems that leave you unable to function in society should get treatment.

But for a professional, or would be professional, to use something like this to do their job? It just seams unprofessional to me. What about an athelete taking an adrenaline booster prior to a performance? I see it the same. Using a chemical to modify your natural condition for an improved erformance. Wether it boost or reduces something doesn't matter.

That's not to say that someone taking Inderal for a heart condition, or perscribed it for a more general anxiety problem should not be allowed to perform. Just using it only to fight performance related anxiety, and not other reason is the problem.

It's a more general trend in the country that bothers me. Taking a pill as a quick fix instead of actually working on the problems. Too many kids are given pills for ADD (or whatever they call it now) instead of working on the behavior issues. Many teens and adult ar give pills for depression instead of working on the problem. In some cases the pills are warranted, but not as often as they are used. Case in point, Had I been in grade school in the 90's instead of the 70's, I would have been give some pill for hyperactivity. Instead I learned to control it with help fom my parents and teachers. Now I've either out grown it or control has become second nature, because I don't have the problems today. Has I been given a pill, I likey would still be taking it.

[ThomasDodd]

I have tried theater, and do get stage fright. I cannot breather and my voice looses all power. In normal situations my voice carries too well, and have to actively keep it down. That's why theater was suggested.

For argument's sake, what if you were driven to become an actor. You loved acting more than anything else. You studied with the best actors alive, read every article, spent hours browsing ActNet ;) , and did everything you could be to become a great actor. In front of the mirror, you were even more convincing than Anthony Hopkins.

No matter what you did, however, your knees shook whenever you set foot on stage, and you developed a stammer. Nobody was willing to offer you a job and you had to resort to greeting at WalMart.

I would have given up on acting long before that time and delved into my other interests. I still wonder sometimes if I should have persued action or music as a profession. Should I have gotten help to get to the point I could perform? Might I still need to someday anyway?

Those are the "what if" question we all ask ourselves as we go through life. I'm certain I'm where God intended me to be, doing what he wants me to (mostly). Had He wanted me to be an actor or musician, He would have either not given me the stage-fright or or led me to overcome the problem.

[Mudman]

Case in point, Had I been in grade school in the 90's instead of the 70's, I would have been give some pill for hyperactivity. Instead I learned to control it with help fom my parents and teachers. Now I've either out grown it or control has become second nature, because I don't have the problems today. Has I been given a pill, I likey would still be taking it.

I agree.

First, exhaust all other possible remedies. As a last resort, try medication.

Successful performances with inderal can lead to successful performances without inderal.

[Lew]

Most musicians who have prescriptions for Inderal aren't popping them everyday in order to get through rehearsals and concerts. Of the people who I know who use it, they might take it 3 times a year and then only a 10-15mg dosage.

So be it. But I disagree with it using it.

Treating a problem the hinder your live in a sever way is one thing. So people that suffer panic attacks, or hother problems that leave you unable to function in society should get treatment.

But for a professional, or would be professional, to use something like this to do their job? It just seams unprofessional to me. What about an athelete taking an adrenaline booster prior to a performance? I see it the same. Using a chemical to modify your natural condition for an improved erformance. Wether it boost or reduces something doesn't matter.
...

Your argument holds no water for me. A musician who can perform beautifully in practice, but for whom performance anxiety would be a major barrier to performing in public isn't cheating if medication can help. The resulting performance with the medication is not any better than they could otherwise perform, it just allows them to perform up to their potential. And besides, since when has music become a competition?

OK, it is a competition to the extent that one must audition, and "beat" other musicians to gain the right to play in a certain group, but even then I don't see it as cheating in any way. The objective is to have the best performing musicians available in the group, or at least the ones who's performance fits the vision of the musical director.

An athelete using steroids, or adrenelin, or blood doping will perform better than they would otherwise be able to. This isn't exactly true for a musician. I equate it to an asthmatic or a diabetic athelete. Both can take medication to control these conditions and still compete fairly because it isn't giving them abilities that they otherwise didn't have. It is only allowing them to use the abilities that they do have.

This is only my opinion, but you're wrong and I'm right!

[Mudman]

But for a professional, or would be professional, to use something like this to do their job? It just seams unprofessional to me. What about an athelete taking an adrenaline booster prior to a performance? I see it the same. Using a chemical to modify your natural condition for an improved performance. Wether it boost or reduces something doesn't matter.

Devil's Advocate Alert

Combat pilots take speed in order to stay awake on long missions. Should the Air Force only hire insomniacs (or people who may have the genetic disposition to staying awake on long flights)? Should orchestras only hire those people who are fortunate enough to have no nerve problems?

All in good humour,

Mudman

[WoodSheddin]

Most musicians who have prescriptions for Inderal aren't popping them everyday in order to get through rehearsals and concerts. Of the people who I know who use it, they might take it 3 times a year and then only a 10-15mg dosage.

So be it. But I disagree with it using it.

I can respect that.

I was just wanting to help dispel some of the common misunderstandings of what beta blockers do and how they are used.

[ThomasDodd]

So Thomas, you eat like a horse and don't get fat?
I hate you.

More like, a bird (which consumes more pounds of food per pound of body weight than most animals). It's been said I eat the horse. Then there's the hollow leg (or 2) theory my mother started.

I'm just hoping my metabolism doesn't slow down too much, too soon

FWIW, I was 4'9" at 140lbs in grade school. Then I grew a foot and gained no weight

[MaryAnn]

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[MaryAnn]

bump

[ThomasDodd]

I suppose you don't take any meds when you have the flu? You don't drink coffee to wake up in the morning? Never have a beer to relax?

Flu, not normally. Perhaps something to controll a fever. But I don't go to work wth the Flu either. I don't drink beer, prefering the taste of harer liquors. Not sure on the coffee. I start the day with a cup and a smoke, and drink coffee until after 5 most days. But when traveling I myu not have access to coffee in my room, so may not have my normal dose.

I AM an electrical engineer, 20 years after my music degree. I still love music and think I have much to offer the audience as a performer. Too bad they don't get to hear it except in my living room.

Might be a shame to lose a good engineer.

I too love music and play when I can. Not often around here though. I'm sure you do have much to offer as do the many other artists that know one knows about. My wife a graphic designer and has the talent to do less "commercial" art. But she suffers from fear of rejection, so won't show her work. That doesn't make her less of an artist, just one whose works will not be seen.

The symotoms you descibed are bad. More than enough to change your career. But, perhaps that means you were supposed to do something else in life. Just because one has the talent, ability, or desire to do something doesn't mean they will, or should. It a cold, hard fact of life, and a part of the human condition. In any give endevor, only a few are destined to succeed. The rest of us must find the thing we are ment to succeed at.

[MaryAnn]

bump