purchasing instruments survey

[jhickmott]

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[sailn2ba]

My lands! . . I never would've guessed the amount of response to this thread.
I DO know of of a school that made an arrangement with an instrument manufacturer to become a ""**** - ****** school" and they got really big discounts on instruments (pretty good instruments).

[sailn2ba]

Bloke, I can see the problem with bell flares , because every dinkin' stupido puts the horn down on its bell! . . A battle I fight all the time. HOWEVER, what's the deal about the 1sr valve linkage.

[imperialbari]

It is irresponsible to purchase any sort of "compensating" euphoniums for schools. Thousands of dollars to be able to play three extremely low pitches never written in graded band music is absolutely irresponsible spending.

I do not share bloke’s approach towards compensating euphoniums that these are just about 3 more pitches. Having played single as well as double valve bass trombones, I am strongly pro the double valved version, which kind of defines my way of thinking brass. This includes chromatic access to all notes within the instruments range. Being able to play all, as in ALL, sorts of scales in the full range is the basis for evenness in sound and in intonation. No note defines itself - it is always part of an explicit or implicit (as in Bach’s cello suites) context.

bloke is true that the compensating euphonium has its shortcomings seen in that perspective, but a main tuning slide trigger can take care of that.

And from a teacher’s point of view I am fully in agreement with bloke that compers are irrelevant for young players. But that is because these are far too heavy to hold and, worse, far too heavy to blow to allow young people developing a fluid playing style within the range needed in their bands.

I have used the Yamaha YEP-321 in my own teaching, because it was the best available for school money. I wouldn’t really want it for myself, but might have accepted it as a street horn. I much better liked the Weril Yamaha-(almost)-clone, but when it appeared on the market, I didn’t need a second euphonium.

However, the best school baritone/small euph I ever tried was 40 years ago, and it was American, likely a Reynolds. Immensely playable and fluid without being a cissy or a trombonium in sound. I like instruments out of the old German/Czech tradition and out of the British/French tradition, and these mostly are still available from new. But I also love the instruments out of the USA. King and Conn more than Bach (which I find being too rigid in playing style - the flip side of their proud sound - their standing waves certainly stand), but also Getzen, Martin, Kanstul, Mück, and Reynolds are in my collection. York only indirectly via Germany in form of the York Master bass.

Seen from across the pond the US marked sadly killed itself by buying foreign in huge quantities. That had happened before my birth on the much smaller Danish and Swedish markets also, but with much less impact on the overall availability of a wide selection of good instruments. Just look at the current sousaphone market. If one doesn’t want a Conn 20K, which can be hard enough to wait for, what outstanding American sousaphones can then be had from new here in 2008?

Already too much of a rant, I will try to be brief on tubas. Eb basses are not the ideal carriers of the bottom line in a band. Sadly so as they are really user friendly for kids. I am out of the teaching loop now and don’t hear many junior bands live any more. However I am told that the current trend is to use F tubas(4 rotary valves) for the bass line and letting Eb tubas(4 piston valves) get as much as possible from the contrabass line as possible. I do not like the YEP-321 for my own playing, but it is a very relevant instrument for youngsters.

One BBb tuba, which put me off from BBb tubas for a few years was the YBB-641. Really unwieldy to play. I came over that experience and now have 4 BBb basses with one shared factor despite their obvious differences: none of them are available in the market of today.

Klaus Smedegaard Bjerre

[rocksanddirt]

Interesting discussion.

Rather than discuss specific horns in your presentation, focus on the real needs of schools. Decent sound, cost, durability, ease of maintenance and repair, etc. Then you can highlight particular horns that meet these conditions to varying degrees. A new BBb 186 is a big chunk of change, but maybe the sound, durability, ease of repair, availability of parts make it a viable choice for some schools. Others might be only really looking at Jupiter as the high end and crazy-chinese-brass-tinfoil horns due to costs alone.

[rocksanddirt]

When kids tump Miraphone 186 tubas, they always hit on the first valve stem...and after three or four tumps, the linkage (not just the 1st valve linkage) is mangled. It's the lucky school that gets their linkage back from the repair shop with a straight carriage rod and good tolerances around the paddles' hinge tubing...and (with the new carriage design), the carriages tend to (simply) break rather than (like the old ones) bend.

After straightening the first rotor stem about 7 - 8 times, they tend to break off...Then what?

I wonder if there would be any value in putting a guard over the valve ends on those when sold to a school. It wouldn't have to be much to protect the valve stems from damage like that. Easier to bend a guard back into place than straighten the valve stems, correct the linkages.

[imperialbari]

When kids tump Miraphone 186 tubas, they always hit on the first valve stem...and after three or four tumps, the linkage (not just the 1st valve linkage) is mangled. It's the lucky school that gets their linkage back from the repair shop with a straight carriage rod and good tolerances around the paddles' hinge tubing...and (with the new carriage design), the carriages tend to (simply) break rather than (like the old ones) bend.

After straightening the first rotor stem about 7 - 8 times, they tend to break off...Then what?

I wonder if there would be any value in putting a guard over the valve ends on those when sold to a school. It wouldn't have to be much to protect the valve stems from damage like that. Easier to bend a guard back into place than straighten the valve stems, correct the linkages.

My Scherzer Bb trumpet with vertical push rods had a nickel silver wire shaped like a soccer goal over the cranks of the rotors to avoid the right hand palm interfering with the action. One or two of these actually might work like the wire mask of a hockey goalkeeper on rotor tubas, but they would need to be seated on flanges of some size to avoid damage on the vertical branch.

Klaus

[rocksanddirt]

Piston valveset parts are mostly "macro". Many rotary parts are "micro". In schools today where no paddling is allowed and a deplorably high percentage of parents/students use alcohol and other substances, "macro" is better.

At least when a plastic clarinet is thrown away, that's only about $350 down the toilet.

yeah, that's a good point.

I'm sure that's what happened to my 186. as when I got it the 4th valve stem was broken, the bottom and top bows were severly damaged, and the first valve linkage and stem were slightly bent. Likely it got knocked over from sitting on it's bell, broke the linkage and valve stem, someone put it in a closet and the remainder of damage occured. but $650 and $1,300 in repairs and I've got a great horn for me that it's time to go practice!

[Dan Schultz]

I've seen LOTS more broken fourth rotor stems than I've seen damaged first rotor stems. Not that it makes a whole load of difference. But what I've noticed is damage resulting from the horn being banged on a door jamb or other immovable object during transport without a case than from just 'tumping' over.

From the types of damage I usually see from school horns... there is nothing out there that will hold up to the rigors of a horn falling off the bleachers during a pep rally and sousaphone crashing together on the field.

That being said.... I do not like to see middle schools (or even high schools for that matter) buying rotary horns. Stick to the front-action upright tubas. Not because they are more durable. But just because they are easier and less expensive to fix. There are loads of pre-Conn-Selmer Conn 12/15J tubas out there that play just fine other than needing a resource for inexpensive new bells.

[iiipopes]

My high school bought the King. It lasted forever until the band director retired and the "new" band director just had to have some "new" Yammys. I've been to the concerts. They don't sound as good.

I've played beside some young players who sat in with us at Memorial Day. Their upright Yammys had tons of mechanical issues.

I've played the Jupiters. In spite of the pistons now being stainless steel, the open wrap is the worst dent magnet since the Edwardian era York and Besson tubas with their 3rd or 4th valve wraps tracing the bugle.

Unless it was a really talented and consciencious player, I wouldn't let a middle or high school player anywhere near a rotor. I've seen too much neglect and damage on the college level; I can't imagine how much worse it would be in a public school setting.

I have a stock broker friend who bought his son a brand-spankin'-new Yammy rotary for high school. If anyone was both talented and conscientious, it was him: Eagle Scout and college scholarship in nuclear physics. Even he has nothing but trouble with the valve linkage.

I'm with bloke: if you're purchasing for a high school, the King 1241. If for a middle school, the King 1240 with a tuba stand, for all the reasons he says, including this: they've been made in basically the same form for about a century. Any tech or shop worth its tools will have access to tons of "crash parts" when, and I said when, something untoward happens.

[jeopardymaster]

easier to de-fubar

Industry term-of-the-day, kids.

That one got my attention too. I'm having some trouble with the concept. If it's "fubar" how do you "de-fubar" it?

Recalls an old George Carlin bit.

[Rick Denney]

I could narrow the question perhaps by stating if you were the junior high/high school instrumental instructor what instrument would you look for getting for your program?

thanks for all of the input.

I think that question has already been well-answered.

One point I want to make: Everyone talks about how terrible it is to stand a tuba on the bell. Even so, I see most pros doing just that. Why? Because they take up less floor space, and because they stand taller and are less likely to be underfoot in a crowded rehearsal area.

The problem is that many tubas are not stable when standing on their bells. So one requirement for me would be: The tuba must be able to be rested on the floor in a manner that is both stable and that provides reasonable protection. Laying a tuba on its side does not fulfill this requirement--one errant foot and all is lost.

Miraphone 186's and most other rotary tubas are too tall and the bells too narrow to be stable when stood on their bell. Perhaps that's why those rotary valves see so much shop time.

The King 2341 (not the 1241, which is decades out of production, and many schools are constrained to buying new instruments) has a 20" and is only about 36" tall. It's stable on its bell. The bell rim is more vulnerable on this instrument, but rolling out a bell rim is about the easiest repair on a tuba.

Any school kid would be fortunate to have a King 2341 to play. (Or any adult amateur, for that matter.) Personally, I think they are small enough and playable enough even for very young players in the 7th and 8th grade. I played a King sousaphone at that age, using a Conn or a Wenger sousaphone chair.

Even kids with professional aspirations and talent can progress at least to the collegiate level with a King 2341. I can think of many C tubas that cost twice as much that I would be less willing to recommend.

Rick "not a teacher, but always a student" Denney

[Uncle Buck]

I've heard the definition of fubar using two different words for the final "r" - either "recognition" or "repair."

Using "recognition" it would be possible to de-fubar a tuba. Using "repair" it should not be possible.

[iiipopes]

The problem is that many tubas are not stable when standing on their bells...Miraphone 186's and most other rotary tubas are too tall and the bells too narrow to be stable when stood on their bell. Perhaps that's why those rotary valves see so much shop time.

Add to that any Boosey/Besson 17" bell: every, and I mean every one of those, including mine before I got it, has fallen over and has the ubiquitous flat spot on the opposite bottom bow ferrule.

[tofu]

--

[Rick Denney]

I guess you have to find out why some schools have success at keeping their instruments from being trashed. I bet there are some common things that the successful schools do that others could learn from.

One of those would be a principal and administration that will back up a band director who wants to discipline kids for ill-treating their borrowed instruments, particularly with the parents when they are asked to pay to repair any damage.

Good luck with that.

Rick "suspecting that many band directors have given up after being abandoned and undermined too many times" Denney

[iiipopes]

...as well as a band director who believed you took care of your horn the way a Marine takes care of his rifle. I guess you have to find out why some schools have success at keeping their instruments from being trashed. I bet there are some common things that the successful schools do that others could learn from.

My high school band director was Navy band, so indeed, we were taught to take care of school instruments in the same way a Marine is taught to take care of his rifle. And yes, the school owned instruments had similar long service tenures as a result, and yes, Rick, I was from a conservative part of the country that did back up and support the director on discipline issues, thankfully.

[Jesse Brook]

I would put my vote behind the King as well. I've played one, and they are hefty hardware, as well as cheap. Even the most careful student takes a while to get used to a large instrument like the tuba, and bumps, scrapes and falls will happen. The King plays better than an Amati, and plays better than most of the tubas that Yamaha can field, as well. For small tubas, the Weril should still do. Even at a more expensive price, it's almost $2000 cheaper than the King, but should be good for students. Amatis will just make any potential tubist frustrated.

[Alex C]

Many years ago there was a band director in New Orleans who bought an Alexander tuba (maybe two) for the band. He insisted that any student who was chosen to play the Alexander had to wear elbow length white cotton gloves. After ten years of use, the tuba was in mint condition without a dent.

This has been a depressing thread for me to read. I hate to read that students cannot be taught to take care of instruments. There are places that do have ways of keeping school owned instruments in good shape....
surely someone has a plan that works.

[tubadood5150]

Well, in my high school. We have to sign a form saying we will take care of the instrument and that regular cleaning and proper storage is to be done without question. If one of our tubas is "fubar-ed" we buy it. We use Yamaha YBB641 tubas for our wind ensemble. I really do not like them but they are holding up very well. My bell hasn't creased or bent at all and I set it on the bell all the time. There are only one or two dents in the 5 years they have been at my school. Brunswick really doesn't mess around with our instrument care.