purchasing instruments survey

[imperialbari]

When kids tump Miraphone 186 tubas, they always hit on the first valve stem...and after three or four tumps, the linkage (not just the 1st valve linkage) is mangled. It's the lucky school that gets their linkage back from the repair shop with a straight carriage rod and good tolerances around the paddles' hinge tubing...and (with the new carriage design), the carriages tend to (simply) break rather than (like the old ones) bend.

After straightening the first rotor stem about 7 - 8 times, they tend to break off...Then what?

I wonder if there would be any value in putting a guard over the valve ends on those when sold to a school. It wouldn't have to be much to protect the valve stems from damage like that. Easier to bend a guard back into place than straighten the valve stems, correct the linkages.

My Scherzer Bb trumpet with vertical push rods had a nickel silver wire shaped like a soccer goal over the cranks of the rotors to avoid the right hand palm interfering with the action. One or two of these actually might work like the wire mask of a hockey goalkeeper on rotor tubas, but they would need to be seated on flanges of some size to avoid damage on the vertical branch.

Klaus

[rocksanddirt]

Piston valveset parts are mostly "macro". Many rotary parts are "micro". In schools today where no paddling is allowed and a deplorably high percentage of parents/students use alcohol and other substances, "macro" is better.

At least when a plastic clarinet is thrown away, that's only about $350 down the toilet.

yeah, that's a good point.

I'm sure that's what happened to my 186. as when I got it the 4th valve stem was broken, the bottom and top bows were severly damaged, and the first valve linkage and stem were slightly bent. Likely it got knocked over from sitting on it's bell, broke the linkage and valve stem, someone put it in a closet and the remainder of damage occured. but $650 and $1,300 in repairs and I've got a great horn for me that it's time to go practice!

[Dan Schultz]

I've seen LOTS more broken fourth rotor stems than I've seen damaged first rotor stems. Not that it makes a whole load of difference. But what I've noticed is damage resulting from the horn being banged on a door jamb or other immovable object during transport without a case than from just 'tumping' over.

From the types of damage I usually see from school horns... there is nothing out there that will hold up to the rigors of a horn falling off the bleachers during a pep rally and sousaphone crashing together on the field.

That being said.... I do not like to see middle schools (or even high schools for that matter) buying rotary horns. Stick to the front-action upright tubas. Not because they are more durable. But just because they are easier and less expensive to fix. There are loads of pre-Conn-Selmer Conn 12/15J tubas out there that play just fine other than needing a resource for inexpensive new bells.

[iiipopes]

My high school bought the King. It lasted forever until the band director retired and the "new" band director just had to have some "new" Yammys. I've been to the concerts. They don't sound as good.

I've played beside some young players who sat in with us at Memorial Day. Their upright Yammys had tons of mechanical issues.

I've played the Jupiters. In spite of the pistons now being stainless steel, the open wrap is the worst dent magnet since the Edwardian era York and Besson tubas with their 3rd or 4th valve wraps tracing the bugle.

Unless it was a really talented and consciencious player, I wouldn't let a middle or high school player anywhere near a rotor. I've seen too much neglect and damage on the college level; I can't imagine how much worse it would be in a public school setting.

I have a stock broker friend who bought his son a brand-spankin'-new Yammy rotary for high school. If anyone was both talented and conscientious, it was him: Eagle Scout and college scholarship in nuclear physics. Even he has nothing but trouble with the valve linkage.

I'm with bloke: if you're purchasing for a high school, the King 1241. If for a middle school, the King 1240 with a tuba stand, for all the reasons he says, including this: they've been made in basically the same form for about a century. Any tech or shop worth its tools will have access to tons of "crash parts" when, and I said when, something untoward happens.

[jeopardymaster]

easier to de-fubar

Industry term-of-the-day, kids.

That one got my attention too. I'm having some trouble with the concept. If it's "fubar" how do you "de-fubar" it?

Recalls an old George Carlin bit.

[Rick Denney]

I could narrow the question perhaps by stating if you were the junior high/high school instrumental instructor what instrument would you look for getting for your program?

thanks for all of the input.

I think that question has already been well-answered.

One point I want to make: Everyone talks about how terrible it is to stand a tuba on the bell. Even so, I see most pros doing just that. Why? Because they take up less floor space, and because they stand taller and are less likely to be underfoot in a crowded rehearsal area.

The problem is that many tubas are not stable when standing on their bells. So one requirement for me would be: The tuba must be able to be rested on the floor in a manner that is both stable and that provides reasonable protection. Laying a tuba on its side does not fulfill this requirement--one errant foot and all is lost.

Miraphone 186's and most other rotary tubas are too tall and the bells too narrow to be stable when stood on their bell. Perhaps that's why those rotary valves see so much shop time.

The King 2341 (not the 1241, which is decades out of production, and many schools are constrained to buying new instruments) has a 20" and is only about 36" tall. It's stable on its bell. The bell rim is more vulnerable on this instrument, but rolling out a bell rim is about the easiest repair on a tuba.

Any school kid would be fortunate to have a King 2341 to play. (Or any adult amateur, for that matter.) Personally, I think they are small enough and playable enough even for very young players in the 7th and 8th grade. I played a King sousaphone at that age, using a Conn or a Wenger sousaphone chair.

Even kids with professional aspirations and talent can progress at least to the collegiate level with a King 2341. I can think of many C tubas that cost twice as much that I would be less willing to recommend.

Rick "not a teacher, but always a student" Denney

[Uncle Buck]

I've heard the definition of fubar using two different words for the final "r" - either "recognition" or "repair."

Using "recognition" it would be possible to de-fubar a tuba. Using "repair" it should not be possible.

[iiipopes]

The problem is that many tubas are not stable when standing on their bells...Miraphone 186's and most other rotary tubas are too tall and the bells too narrow to be stable when stood on their bell. Perhaps that's why those rotary valves see so much shop time.

Add to that any Boosey/Besson 17" bell: every, and I mean every one of those, including mine before I got it, has fallen over and has the ubiquitous flat spot on the opposite bottom bow ferrule.

[tofu]

--

[Rick Denney]

I guess you have to find out why some schools have success at keeping their instruments from being trashed. I bet there are some common things that the successful schools do that others could learn from.

One of those would be a principal and administration that will back up a band director who wants to discipline kids for ill-treating their borrowed instruments, particularly with the parents when they are asked to pay to repair any damage.

Good luck with that.

Rick "suspecting that many band directors have given up after being abandoned and undermined too many times" Denney

[iiipopes]

...as well as a band director who believed you took care of your horn the way a Marine takes care of his rifle. I guess you have to find out why some schools have success at keeping their instruments from being trashed. I bet there are some common things that the successful schools do that others could learn from.

My high school band director was Navy band, so indeed, we were taught to take care of school instruments in the same way a Marine is taught to take care of his rifle. And yes, the school owned instruments had similar long service tenures as a result, and yes, Rick, I was from a conservative part of the country that did back up and support the director on discipline issues, thankfully.

[Jesse Brook]

I would put my vote behind the King as well. I've played one, and they are hefty hardware, as well as cheap. Even the most careful student takes a while to get used to a large instrument like the tuba, and bumps, scrapes and falls will happen. The King plays better than an Amati, and plays better than most of the tubas that Yamaha can field, as well. For small tubas, the Weril should still do. Even at a more expensive price, it's almost $2000 cheaper than the King, but should be good for students. Amatis will just make any potential tubist frustrated.

[Alex C]

Many years ago there was a band director in New Orleans who bought an Alexander tuba (maybe two) for the band. He insisted that any student who was chosen to play the Alexander had to wear elbow length white cotton gloves. After ten years of use, the tuba was in mint condition without a dent.

This has been a depressing thread for me to read. I hate to read that students cannot be taught to take care of instruments. There are places that do have ways of keeping school owned instruments in good shape....
surely someone has a plan that works.

[tubadood5150]

Well, in my high school. We have to sign a form saying we will take care of the instrument and that regular cleaning and proper storage is to be done without question. If one of our tubas is "fubar-ed" we buy it. We use Yamaha YBB641 tubas for our wind ensemble. I really do not like them but they are holding up very well. My bell hasn't creased or bent at all and I set it on the bell all the time. There are only one or two dents in the 5 years they have been at my school. Brunswick really doesn't mess around with our instrument care.

[jameseuph642]

Some points to consider when purchasing instruments for school music programs:
-Durability: Is the instrument going to last a decade or two?
-Parts: Are parts easily available?
-Repair: Is the instrument going to be difficult to repair?
-Age Group: Is the instrument appropriate for the age/grade level?

High School
Tubas: King 2341
Euphs: Yamaha YEP-321
Sousaphone: Conn 20K
Marching Baritone: Yamaha YBH-301M

Middle School
Tubas: King 1140 (I think this the correct model number)
Euphs: Yamaha YEP-201

I prefer King tubas for almost any school situation because they are well built, most repair shops will have easy access to parts, and these tubas will hold down any school ensemble. I also prefer the Yamaha Euphs for many of the same reasons plus the Yamaha euphs are more ergonomically friendly than the King 2280.

Several folks have mentioned various Chinese made instruments which IMO is probably a very bad choice for a school program. Chinese made instruments typically are not very durable and parts are usually not available or easy to get which will cost the program more money in the long run. Trust me on this issue I own a cheap Chinese made trombone (Bach 42B0 Copy) that has not held up well during the two years I have owned it and I took good care of it. I can't imagine what would happen if my trombone was used in a school situation. Chinese makers are getting better, but I am not ready to put their instruments in the hands of my students. Jupiter has certainly made great improvements over the last decade and hopefully this trend continues, but I still have serious questions about the durability of their instruments.

Purchase instruments you can trust. If you don't have the money to buy instruments with a good reputation save up and try again later or push the band parents to raise some more money.
Hope this helps.

[Rick Denney]

Many years ago there was a band director in New Orleans who bought an Alexander tuba (maybe two) for the band. He insisted that any student who was chosen to play the Alexander had to wear elbow length white cotton gloves. After ten years of use, the tuba was in mint condition without a dent.

This has been a depressing thread for me to read. I hate to read that students cannot be taught to take care of instruments. There are places that do have ways of keeping school owned instruments in good shape....
surely someone has a plan that works.

Require:

1. The parents provide a certificate of insurance covering borrowed instruments, with the school as a named beneficiary (impractical, but not impossible).

Or...

2. The school purchases insurance and requires the borrower to pay the premium.

3. The borrower is required to provide a security deposit, at least equal to the deductible on the insurance. Any instrument that requires an insurance claim will raise the rates, and thus the deposit for everyone. That might (maybe) provide some incentive for students to police the care their band-mates give to the instruments. Okay, probably not.

I know of no other borrower situation where borrower or renter is not required to post a security or damage deposit.

Rick "in addition to discipline for willful neglect or abuse" Denney

[rocksanddirt]

'snip'
2. The school purchases insurance and requires the borrower to pay the premium.

3. The borrower is required to provide a security deposit, at least equal to the deductible on the insurance. Any instrument that requires an insurance claim will raise the rates, and thus the deposit for everyone. That might (maybe) provide some incentive for students to police the care their band-mates give to the instruments. Okay, probably not.

I know of no other borrower situation where borrower or renter is not required to post a security or damage deposit.

Rick "in addition to discipline for willful neglect or abuse" Denney

Waaaaayyyyy back when I was in elementary school, to use a school horn you had to pay a deposit that was basically the insurance fee. It can be done, districts choose not to, and have logical consequences.