My brother needs a basstrombone - Holton TR 181 any good?

[Søren]

My brother has just gotten the 4'th trombone seat in a better than average big band. Now he needs a larger trombone. He has a King 2B and a 3B.

He has been looking at a nice Holton TR 181 from 1996. This horn fits the bill on paper. Two independent valves and a large bell. There is no way he can play test before he buys it. The bell is raw brass but otherwise the horn looks nice. The price is around 1000$. Is this a nice horn for the money? Any other suggestions?

[Davy]

The Holton 181, from what I have read, is a good bass trombone. never actually played one, but I know some people that own one, and they really like it.

[Tuba Guy]

For $1,000, I would say that is probably good. I play bass bone in big band (ah, alliteration), and you definitely need the double valves (not just for low notes/the low B, but also for alternate positions up higher)...ok, well I definitely need the 2 valves.
Double check that the valves and slide are in good shape...other than that, there isn't really much that could go wrong on a bass bone. The sound may not be ideal for him, but a little bit of mouthpiece experimentation would help that out.
On bass bone, I personally use a Marcinkiewicz "Rickenbach" model (the biggest one I could find), on a Kanstul 1585T silver plated double thayer horn. I have always found that silver gives me more of a "big band" type sound on trombones, but raw brass would work just as well, and probably be better if he ever wanted to do anything other than jazz (when I play in orchestra, I have to switch over to a rose brass bell to lower some of the "edge" on my sound)

[ken k]

While not my first choice, the Holton 181 is not a bad bone. In fact for big band it is pretty good. It has a quick response and a good amount of crack to the artix to cut throught the band.

especially for $1000 you probably can't go too wrong.

I played a 181 in college and for many years after. Mine was a bit stuffy in the valve register compared to the newer thayer valves, etc. and even the larger rotor valves that are available now. If your brother is used to a 2B or 3B I would suspect he will not have too much trouble with this however.

k

[MartyNeilan]

My brother has just gotten the 4'th trombone seat in a better than average big band. Now he needs a larger trombone. He has a King 2B and a 3B.

He has been looking at a nice Holton TR 181 from 1996.

In that context, I would say go for it. If you told me he would be playing bass trombone in an orchestra I would say keep looking. I had a 181 and it was an easy to play horn but could really "bark" if you wanted to push it - Good in the right context, bad in the wrong context. I eventually replaced it with a Getzen 1062 FDR that was probably flexible enough to be used in any situation. Ken is right that the 181 valves were a little on the stuffy side, but again some jazzers see that as a plus for getting more growl out of a low C or B.

[djwesp]

soren...


Since this is a topic of personal preference... these horns are complete crap. Seriously. They are:

1. Not free blowing, even by double valve bass trombone standards.

2. prone to chipping on the slides.

3. impossible to get a consistent "bass trombone" sound on.

4. horribly out of balance, yes, even by double valved bass trombone standards...


I have played several no name chinese bass trombones that are better, and that is NOT a compliment to the chinese bass trombones, but a comment to this particular holton. So far i've played three of these 181's and each one has been a dog.

[Søren]

Thanks for the comments guys. As always there are different opinions but the majority seems to favor this Holton at this price point. And ofcurse there is always the possibility that it is a dog.
To clarify: he will only be using it in a Big Band setting.

djwesp: you seem to have rather bad experience with these horns. Are there any other 2 valve bassbones in the same price range that you would recommend looking at instead?

If the choice is between buying this Holton or a Chinese horn unseen, I think the Holton might be the best bet. It will surely be easier to resell.


(The ultimate bassbone here in Denmark seems to be (or where some years back) a Mix of 3 different components. Some kind of Edwards bell, a couple of Thayer valves and a slide from a third manufacturer.)

[djwesp]

I have seen quite a few used Yamaha YBL-611II's, Bach 50B2LO, Besson 943, Olds 493's floating around which were in the 1,000 price range. These are GREAT horns.

[Tuba Guy]

Personal opinion, stay away from Yamaha bass bones. I used one for a couple years in high school (when I wanted to practice double rotor stuff; the horn they had lent me was a King 5B single trigger), and it really can't hold its weight. The valves never work properly, the slide was a piece of c**p (even when well taken care of and back from getting fixed), the sound was too mellow for a big band, it was incredibly stuffy and out of tune with itself, and it just didn't feel good to play. Once in a while last year (after I got my Kanstul), I had to go back to this horn, and it really just made me appreciate the Kanstul even more.
So, my vote would be forget about getting a Yamaha, and go for the Holton. Need be, if it doesnt meet all his expectations, it would probably still have good resale value, and he could go get a different horn later on, if money comes in.

[Matt G]

My biggest issue with the Holton is the bell length. IIRC, the end of the bell is about 1.5" shorter than every other trombone ever made. This takes some getting used to and will throw off your "position index" for a while. The Holtons tend to put a lot of edge on the sound. Fine for most use, but it doesn't seem to smooth out when you'd like something a bit more mellow (more "west coast").

In regards to Yamaha's the best bet is the stacked rotor unit (YBL-612???) for jazz/big band. It is reminiscent of the older and lighter Conns. Bach's are fine, but get a single valve with the 9.5 inch bell. The larger bell and double valves seem too heavy.

If you can find one, the Benge Bass T-bone is a better horn with good versatility. Old single valve Conns also hold up well. I know double valve horns are "cooler" but single valves tend to be easier to deal with. Also, stacked (dependent) rotors seem to get the right sound in the double valve range. This seems to be a bonus, since they aren't en vogue.

The Holton is a decent horn. If you need to buy quick, it will serve its purpose until something better pops up. There are better alternatives, but your time frame sounds to be the most critical factor.

[Søren]

Thanks everybody. To summarize: The general opinion (as I understand it) is that this Holton would be an OK horn to start with. There is a real possibility that it is a dog, but at this price it should be possible to resell at roughly the same price.

I think he will go for this if he can get a hold of the seller.

And one more question: What is the real downside of having dependent valves on a Bassbone? From my point of view it must make the whole horn lighter and give about the same amount of backpressure. But I can certainly see that very few people favors them. Why?

[Davy]

to add to that, a dependent rotor horn is said to play with less resistance than an Independent horn; usually you would be blowing air through one rotor in the goose neck, rather than 2. although my dependent rotor experience is limited, I never really noticed a difference. For the most part it's personal preference.

[MartyNeilan]

is the real downside of having dependent valves on a Bassbone?

The "definitive" answer...
http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/fa ... alves.html

[Matt G]

is the real downside of having dependent valves on a Bassbone?

The "definitive" answer...
http://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/fa ... alves.html

Doug backs up his opinion with top-notch (of course) playing. His sound is much more "alive" then many other bass trombone players, and I think his equipment is a major reason. He also plays some rather "small" equipment comparatively but has no trouble projecting. IIRC, he helped Yamaha with the "German" style bass with a .547 downtube and .562 uptube. He knows what he is doing.

[Tuba Guy]

And his answer is that there is no definitive answer.
Advantages of dependant-free-er blowing when not using valves
Disadgantages-can't use alternate positions with the 2nd valve

Advantages of independant-more alternate positions
Disadvantages-some don't think it's as easy to blow

Personally, I have never noticed that much of a difference in how a dependant vs independant blows. I think the biggest factor is that you have another partial series to be able to use when you are doing fast passages or looking for better intonation. In this case, I think it's obvious that you should have independant.
Also, single vs double valves...There's the whole argument about "more free blowing" that Mr. Yeo makes. I can't really comment on this (the single valve I used was a much smaller bore than my bass bone), but the single valve doesnt' let you play a low B. A disagreement that I have with the page posted is that the low B really does get played. A lot. I had one piece last year where I had to play that note for about 3 or 4 measures at FFF, something that could not get done on a single valve horn.

[MartyNeilan]

but the single valve doesnt' let you play a low B.
A disagreement that I have with the page posted is that the low B really does get played. A lot. I had one piece last year where I had to play that note for about 3 or 4 measures at FFF, something that could not get done on a single valve horn.

I just got back from a rehearsal playing mostly tuba parts on a single valve Reynolds bass.
HOW??
For most pieces I had the valve tuned to a "flat E"
So, I had to use all 7 positions (many bass bone players never go past 4th or 5th) for normal playing, and I had low C in a sharp 6 and low B in a flat 7.

In bass trombone nomenclature, a true "flat E" tuning has the low B lining up in a perfect 7 as with the B above it. I make a slight tradeoff with my tuning - by requiring the flat 7 for the low B, I am able to play a B in the staff with just the trigger, slide all the way in, and lipping up just a hair. Eliminates those awkward 1-7-1 changes for Bb-B nat-Bb. Low E must be played in 7, as that note is far too flat to lip with the trigger only.

FWIW, a double trigger would have made this easier, and if I was sightreading a performance I would not have wanted to try what I did tonight - some of the low runs were pretty hairy and you need Ahnold biceps to really move this slide around. However, I love how the horn feels, blows, and sounds. In many respects this plays better than any double trigger I have owned, and DEFINITELY much better than a comparable double trigger Reynolds I had years ago - even though this horn is in far worse condition than that horn. Once I get this horn "Bloked" where I can get the slide moving at top speed and some key dents pulled, things should work somewhat better.

A little known bass trombone player by the name of George Roberts made his career on single valve horns. The latest horn bearing his name has a stop rod on the slide for quick pull to E. Most of us will never be able to play half as well as he did (and still does.)

With a proper pull, loud low B's probably come out even better on a single trigger horn than a double since you are blowing through one less rotor and the long pull actually opens up the tuning slide. Many vintage Conn 70h and 72h really roared on low C's and B's. The ONLY thing you are losing is a litle degree of facility down low.

[Matt G]

I think Marty (and I) are of a different understanding of playing the bass trombone. I learned on tenor first, with no F-attachment. That required me to learn things like slide facility and where 5th position actually is.

My first bass trombone was a Yamaha single valve (old Conn-Style 88-H wrap). I learned how to play all the big band stuff on it without much complaint. This further reinforced slide technique.

When I finally bought a double-valve bass, it was a Yamaha TBL-611 or w/e the dependent valve bass is. I preferred the sound of this horn to many other bass trombones, including the 50B, as it came the closest, in my mind, to the sound of a King Duo Gravis. About the only time the second valve was used was for low C and B-natural. Even then, I still played low C out in 7th, if facility and technique allowed.

I watched a lot of bass trombone players figure out all of the alternates available for the independent horn. It really does help with technical issues in the low register. However, it really doesn't seem to help the sound, IMO. I have seen good trombone players play bass books competently with a Bach 42B and you not even notice. Besides, low B-natural is workable, especially with the closed wrap setups and the extra-long pull.

In regards to Doug Yeo, his answer is what he personally uses most often. The horn I have seen him play is his personal design from Yamaha. I am sure that he has some real opinion on the matter, and that is expressed more so in actions than words.

[tbn.al]

The ONLY thing you are losing is a litle (HUGE) degree of facility down low.

Most of us aren't in the same league with Mr. Roberts so it is immatierial what he can do, which is amazing. I haul that extra weight around every day because it makes it easier for me to play what is on the page with a reasonable degree of accuracy. I'm an arthritic 62 and it's worth every pound. I'm of the bloke school on this one, "Why settle for a compromise when you don't have to". I also don't like the old rotor horns anymore because when use both valves you get a different sound. I can't stand Thayers because of the long throw and clunky feel. Thank God for Rene' Hagmann.

To answer the OP on the 181, I've had two. My 70's model was a horse. Wish I still had it. When I bought another one in the 90's it was a POS. As for Bach, I've had 2 of those as well. The 60's dependant 101/2" bell was so heavy I didn't keep it long although it played ok. My 80's 50B3O was a dog, it would literaly bark on it's own. I do like the Custom horns of various ilks but am perfectly happy with my Besson 943R independent, and they can be had used with Hagmanns for less than $1000 occaisionally.

[Søren]

Thanks again guys. I can't seem to reach the seller of the Holton, but I will keep my eyes on ebay for the different models that have been discussed.

Are there any 2 valved independent bass bones (working order and so on) that my brother and I should NOT buy under any circumstances for ~1000$? (We will not take any chance with any Indian/Chinese made horn)