jazz tuba

[ken k]

here is all you need to know....


The only problem may be that being from the UK, or if you are under 40 years old, you may not know who Yogi Berra is.

ken k



Yogi Berra's Explanation of Jazz

Interviewer: Can you explain jazz?

Yogi: I can't, but I will. 90% of all jazz is half improvisation

The other half is the part people play while others are playing

something they never played with anyone who played that part. So if you play the

wrong part, its right. If you play the right part, it might be right if

you play it wrong enough. But if you play it too right, it's

wrong.


Interviewer: I don't understand.

Yogi: Anyone who understands jazz knows that you can't understand

it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it.


Interviewer: Do you understand it?

Yogi: No. That's why I can explain it. If I understood it, I wouldn't

know anything about it.

Interviewer: Are there any great jazz player alive today?

Yogi: No. All the great jazz players alive today are dead. Except for

the ones that are still alive. But so many of them are dead, that

the ones that are still alive are dying to be like the ones that are dead.

Interviewer: What is syncopation?

Yogi: That's when the note that you should hear now happens either

before or after you hear it. In jazz, you don't hear notes when

they happen because that would be some other type of music. Other

types of music can be jazz, but only if they're the same as something

different from those other kinds.

Interviewer: Now I really don't understand.

Yogi: I haven't taught you enough for you to not understand jazz

that well.

[David Richoux]

Great Yogi quotes! - I had forgotten about that interview...

Another way to look at jazz: (no tubas, as I recall
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TebUMhJAKSM

[tubeast]

I have the impression that the artistry of great names in jazz is based on spending LOTS of time just fooling around on an instrument. That is, try out riffs you picked up from th radio, try and imitate the rhythm generated by a train passing a railroad crossing... Anything that´ll enable You to put things You´d like to play into muscle memory.
That´ll be a process of creating tools You can make use of whenever You might need them.

Maybe a similar amount of time has been spent listening to OTHER musicians of whatever genre.
As Jon Sass puts it nicely in one of his articles: Find musicians You don´t like and don´t do as they do. Then find musicians You actually like and don´t do as they do, neither.

An easy entrance into the kind of ensemble playing and listening skills required here is playing simple folk songs or any music you like, with other people, taking turns in making up 2nd or 3rd melodic voices as well as accompanying bass lines.
This helped me, at least, and it builds up an ability of anticipation which direction a song will be going.
(Although I must confess I haven´t gone very much beyond that point yet, but I´m trying.)

[Liberty Mo]

I don't know if anyone mentioned this previously, but you may wish to email Eli Newberger. He is a regular poster on the forums and is largerly regarded as one of the best jazz tubists around. He has shared a lot of good insight on this subject over the years.

http://www.elinewberger.com/music.html

[David Richoux]

I wanted to do a bit of follow-up on my answer - was thinking about it during rehearsal tonight. What makes a "Walking Bass Line" different from a "Regular" Jazz bass line is that the Walking Bass tends away from the "Oom-Pah" note selections and instead moves along a kind of arcing line through the song chords. The steps between each note are usually closer, but they can jump for significant chord changes. Picking which exact notes to play just comes with listening and experimentation.

The trick is to make a counterpoint to the melody that is interesting to listen or dance to, without loosing the rhythmic drive (or overpowering the lead line.) It all depends on what the song wants or is "supposed" to sound like - there is nothing inherently "right" or "wrong" with a 2 Beat (Polka or March-ish) vs. 4 Beat pattern, if that is way the song is being played. If the song is more like a Samba, or a modern New Orleans Street-Funk or whatever, then probably neither 2 beat nor 4 beat would be good...

There was a film I saw a while ago about the late Arthur Kane (bassist for the New York Dolls) and I remember him saying (not an exact quote) the bass player in a small combo is really the conductor - keeping everything going right, driving the song through the changes, keeping the beat and energy going! http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/new_york_doll/

That sure has been my experience (no matter who is actually "The leader" )

[BopEuph]

I felt compelled to post in this thread. It's a completely different take, from what posts I have read.

As a bassist, I would say a walking bassline IS a typical bassline. Now, other basslines are also called "normal" basslines as well. If you play on one and three, we call it playing "in two."

Jazz is different than the way we typically approach classical music, in the sense that you are not limited to learning something that was only done by your instrument (some classical musicians DO listen to/emulate other instruments, but it seems to veer from the norm). The mention of playing Trane's solo on Giant Steps was something I was required to do in my improv class as a bassist. Learning Miles' solos on So What and Freddie Freeloader are also something I have done. This is all in addition to learning my function in a group. So, I transcribed Paul Chambers, Ray Brown, Jaco Pastorius, Victor Wooten, etc., and applied everything from the above, and more, to both upright and electric bass. Some things don't work on one instrument, some work better than they did on the original instrument they were played on. Some make it more impressive that it's on a certain instrument that doesn't usually do that. It's up to the musician to figure it out.

I'm sure by now, you had that jazz class. If you were invited to the class, I'd say you've done whatever you needed to do to be invited to it. You still want to get into jazz? Then get into it. It has nothing to do with what equipment you use. Claudio Roditi plays a trumpet with rotary valves. Bird has played famous recordings on plastic horns. Still sounds amazing. But let it be known, learning jazz on an instrument you know is still like learning to play a different instrument. A serious jazzer puts in the same amount of practice towards his art as does a serious classical musician. Many times have I noticed classical players think that jazz music is an easy genre, that's reserved for musicians who couldn't cut it in classical. The same goes for many jazzers on the opposite side, too, who think that classical musicians are inferior because they are helpless without printed notes in front of them. I don't think any genre is harder than another. This includes rock, country, folk, etc. I think a successful musician puts in the right amount of time no matter what he does. That includes both practice and interaction with other musicians, whether it be lessons, fooling around, or gigging.

What notes to play? Learn your chromatic scale. I assure you, you'll use every one of those notes. It just may not be in that order.

While I think it would be fun to play dixieland/trad jazz, there just isn't a demand for it. Learn it for the times you might get called for the gig, but I think you'd be lucky if you got one gig every few months. Maybe more or less, depending on your area. Trad jazz isn't at all popular here, so I don't worry about it too much. If you can, however, play walking lines in any modern jazz genre, you have a better chance of that phone sounding. The tuba, of course, can function as the bass in any jazz group. But also look at players like Bill Barber in the album "The Birth of the Cool." There, he's just another horn part. But just because you're a tubist doesn't mean that you have to limit your jazz to only trad jazz.

When it comes to a bassline, I've learned note selection doesn't change much across different genres. Root and fifth will be most popular. In bop, or any walking genre, you still land on the root on the downbeat 90% of the time. The other 9% is the fifth. .5% are other chord-friendly notes. That last .5%? Mostly mistakes, which are followed by an apologetic look to the bandleader or soloist. In funk, ALWAYS land on the one. Root! Trad? Root on one. Rock? You get the picture. The only exception is that bass note that might be put under a chord (Bb7#11/Eb or something). There are tons of approaches to constructing a working bassline, but this rule is the best starting point. The difference usually is rhythmic. I would have to say something like samba is a two-feel style. You play on one and three, though the note on one is very short, and the note on three is very long. Root and fifth here, too.

Just my two cents. Most of this won't make any sense just explaining it over a text field anyway. I'm very tempted to hum my examples at the screen, and my bass is sitting next to me, so I've been tempted to play that for the screen, as well. I don't think it would work that well, anyway.

And I never thought any genre of music to be serious. Being an EMT is serious. A farmer is serious. It's only music!

I'm going to stop here. My mind is swimming with things to say, but it seems like the more I try to say, the harder it gets to explain. As in the words of Lao Tzu, "they who tell do not know; they who know do not tell."

Nick

[Donn]

While I think it would be fun to play dixieland/trad jazz, there just isn't a demand for it. Learn it for the times you might get called for the gig, but I think you'd be lucky if you got one gig every few months. Maybe more or less, depending on your area. Trad jazz isn't at all popular here, so I don't worry about it too much. If you can, however, play walking lines in any modern jazz genre, you have a better chance of that phone sounding. The tuba, of course, can function as the bass in any jazz group. But also look at players like Bill Barber in the album "The Birth of the Cool." There, he's just another horn part. But just because you're a tubist doesn't mean that you have to limit your jazz to only trad jazz.

Thanks for the interesting observations. I singled out the above not because it's especially germane to the topic, but it was surprising to read that there are more tuba players in other types of jazz ensembles, I didn't know that. (Though it was also news to me when I saw a picture of a hop hip group with a sousaphone player ... or is that hip hop?) You know of, say, more than one player who works regularly playing bass on tuba in a jazz group that's not at least loosely in the dixieland genre? Not trying to be argumentative here, nor do I mean to suggest that a person who wants to do that shouldn't just go ahead and give a try regardless of who else is. Just interested to know what's going on.

If I wanted to be argumentative, I might say something like, the advent of electronic amplification for the string bass has put the tuba in the position of a period instrument, along with jugs and banjos.

[David Richoux]

Nick and Donn are both making very important statements and comments!

I have tried off and on to learn both string bass and electric bass guitar - for various reasons I have not spent too much time on either of those instruments, but I do take them out for a walk every once in a while. BTW, there is a pretty good introductory Walking Bass guide done by Robert Reck available at http://www.sibeliusmusic.com/cgi-bin/sh ... eid=107232 - for $2.00 it is worth a read.

There really is a resurgence of tuba and sousaphone playing in non-traditional and non-jazz bands. I see many in the San Francisco area and I have been building a collection of CDs and mp3s of new tuba associated groups. The cross-over between musicians and bands that play in the Honk! Festivals, experimental groups from Europe, Balkan Brass and "alt.rock" has really grown over the last decade. There is a moderately active YahooGroup that can lead you to more on this sort of thing:
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/StreetBand/

[BopEuph]

There are plenty of tubists in modern jazz groups, including the funk genre. Some things to give a listen to:

Younblood Brass Band: Pretty hip hop driven. Includes rappers and a turntablist. Nate Mcintosh plays tuba with them, I believe.
http://www.youngbloodbrassband.com/" target="_blank"

John Sass, of course.
http://www.jonsass.com" target="_blank"

Oystein Baadsvik: Gets together with cats like Chick Corea from time to time.
http://www.baadsvik.com/" target="_blank"

Dirty Dozen Brass Band: Easily a gimme on that one. My first jazz bass teacher made me transcribe one of the basslines from that group.
http://www.dirtydozenbrass.com/" target="_blank"


Drums and Tuba: These guys can't really fit into a genre, but the tuba player with them is pretty killin, too.
http://www.drumsandtuba.com/" target="_blank"

Bob Stewart: Freelance jazz tuba guy from New York (I believe). Most of his ideas are from electric bass.
http://www.bobstewartuba.com/" target="_blank"

This is just a handful off the top of my head. There are plenty more. Most of the bop groups I heard with tuba were live. I remember a group that played at UNC Greensboro at ITEC 2002 (is that right?). The tuba player was walking like a madman. Doug Elliot even sat in with them.

And David, you are on the right track with messing around with bass. It helps you further understand the function of bass/tuba in any genre of music. Victor Wooten himself has made sure to be an able upright player, and has stressed that bassists should play tuba as well. One of these days, I'll be able to afford me a Bb tuba to mess around with.

Nick

[BopEuph]

If I wanted to be argumentative, I might say something like, the advent of electronic amplification for the string bass has put the tuba in the position of a period instrument, along with jugs and banjos.

You're not too far off. The tuba was actually introduced in trad jazz because it was easier to pick up the tuba than string bass for the old recording technologies due to its naturally being louder. Once technology caught back up, the bass came back.

Nick

[BopEuph]

http://tinyurl.com/d4qgkd

"If you have to ask, man, you'll never know."

~Louis Armstrong

[Mark Preece]

Listen intently to Miles Davis' historical album, "Birth of the Cool". Also, take notice of Bill Barber on tuba. Not your 'typical' walking bass line, but a real contributor to the wind section. Really worth a listen.

Incidentally, I will be performing this entire album with a jazz band at the Saskatchewan Jazz Festival in July.

[peter birch]

thanks for all the helpful replies, unfortunately, the day got cancelled at pretty much the last minute, I have a days workshop on Mahlers 2nd next week, but will have to wait another rew weeks to do some jazz.