The Sound of Cimbasso?

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:05 pm

I've become intrigued by the cimbasso. I guess it was seeing Sam Gnagey's creation here a couple of weeks ago that got me thinking about it.

I've read a little bit about it and found a few for sale but I can only guess at what it sounds like because I'm not familiar with any specific music where it is used. I'm guessing that if a cimbasso is not available, a trombone or perhaps an F tuba is used.

Can anyone direct me to some recordings of the cimbasso in use, be they full length recordings or even some sound clips?

Jeff "With turkey on my breath" Benedict

bttmbow · Post by **bttmbow** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:15 pm

Interesting...

The Ring cycle CAN have the Contrabass trombone part played on a Cimbasso, but...

DON'T DO IT!!!

much better on trombone, thanks!

My opinion, FWIW
CJH

Ed Jones · Post by **Ed Jones** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:19 pm

Ever hear a truck using Jake brakes on a downhill grade? A cimbasso sounds a lot like that.

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:32 pm

tubashaman wrote:Listen to some of Wagners ring cycles, or

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FcogV4qfilY

Yes, I found that one. I thought it sounded quite nice although the video was horrible.

I don't read Italian so I don't know the selection. It is a cimbasso accompanied by a big church pipe organ.

It does sound much like a trombone but it is obvious that valves are being used. Quick series of notes seem clearer.

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:42 pm

Bob1062 wrote:Big horn-
http://www.quesonegro.de/I_cover_the_wa ... mbasso.mp3

This is Mattis Cederberg from Germany on a Hagmann valved Haag.

This is the jazz standard, "I Cover The Waterfront". A nice rendition and gives me an idea of the range and color of this 'large' cimbasso.

Thanks for the suggestions, all.

Alex C · Post by **Alex C** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:39 am

Ed Jones wrote:Ever hear a truck using Jake brakes on a downhill grade? A cimbasso sounds a lot like that.

Yes! .... and he's played one.

Years before I heard a cimbasso I asked a French tuba player what it sounded like. I have quoted his response ever since: "Cimbasso sound like barking dog."

quesonegro · Post by **quesonegro** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:15 am

The Haag Cimbasso I play is really built to be a valve contrabass trombone. Frans Monschau, the builder, also builds contrabass trombones and he makes his cimbasso based on the same specs.
Thus the sound being so much like a big trombone, as it should be, in my opinion. Of course, me being a basstrombone player doubling on tuba/cimbasso, I come from a different angle than a tuba player doubling on cimbasso. I also have the unique position of playing it in a context where I have no previous precedence to relate to and so I can make my own mind up on how and when to play it. Great!

To the people that want to get one, I would not bother to get a cheap, bargain one. Most that I have tried, even really expensive ones, have a tendency to be very nasal in sound and have severe intonation problems. The reason I chose the Haag was exactly because it came through in both of these aspects.
Better to save up and get the real thing than to get a cheap alternative that won't really suffice in a professional context!

I'm planning to record a cimbasso album next year so stay tuned

Cheers

//Mattis

imperialbari · Post by **imperialbari** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:57 am

quesonegro · Post by **quesonegro** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:10 am

This is me and the Haag warming up before a outdoors concert with Jon Faddis and James Moody. Pretty artsy!

//Mattis

quesonegro · Post by **quesonegro** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:14 am

Here's me with the Meinl BBb Cimbasso...fun, but to tubaish and clumsy for my taste...much like the doubleslide BBb contrabass trombone the register is to limited...

//Mattis

cambrook · Post by **cambrook** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:18 am

When I heard Matthias' lovely playing on the quesonegro track it sounds so mellow I wondered if the Haag cimbasso might be "too nice". I've since had the opportunity to play one and it is a wonderful instrument - it has a great tonal range, from mellow and rich right through to a wonderful bark - if you want it. The "bark" is at the discretion of the player, it's not out of control like some instruments.

Intonation is excellent, and the 5 Hagmann valves work very well. It also has a couple of nice touches; a trigger on the main slide (to help chase the WW pitch

) and a neat little button that opens the waterkeys on the bottom of the 4th and main slides. It is not cheap, but there are few top-quality instruments of any type that are. Having said that, I think the price is comparable to the other well-known makers. I just hope that I can persuade the opera company to buy it

quesonegro · Post by **quesonegro** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:43 am

I'm glad you liked the track! Thanks!

What I'm looking for in the cimbasso is not so much the "Bark"

I can get all the "crackle" and "bark" I need with my regular horn. For me, what I like, is the broader, fat and soft, quite sonorous qualities in the Haag. It has, however, a very full spectrum of both sound and dynamics. Frans is very firm on the point that he wants it to sound like a trombone, not a tuba on a stick!

Cheers

//Mattis

The Big Ben · Post by **The Big Ben** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:30 am

Thanks for posting, Mattis. Good to get the point of view from someone who really knows the instruments.

BTW: Nice shoes.

Jeff "I notice that sort of thing" Benedict

quesonegro · Post by **quesonegro** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:25 pm

Well...must be hard to have a beard in Shavertown!

//Mattis

quesonegro · Post by **quesonegro** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:51 pm

That sounds like a great idea! Why not wish for a new Porsche while you're at it!!

//Mattis

quesonegro · Post by **quesonegro** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:16 pm

This might be a bit belated but if anybody is interested I uploaded a little video of me playing the Haag...
We're recorded a feature for the cimbasso with WDR big band this week too, "Waterfront" again, but this time arranged by the great Helge Albin...I'll try to post some video or at least some audio soon...

Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSb-_RXcI1g" target="_blank" target="_blank

cheers

//Mattis

Sam Gnagey · Post by **Sam Gnagey** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:11 pm

For general information: I sell the 5-valve F or E-flat cimbassi that I make for $6500. The bore size on them is .687"(17.5mm). They are available on special order only. I have my prototype 4-valve E-flat that I use here for trial purposes. Email or PM me if you're interested in placing an order.
Sam

cimbasso23ku.jpg

J.c. Sherman · Post by **J.c. Sherman** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 9:52 am

I've done a bit of playing on cimbasso/contra for the Opera here for a while. It's really a heck of tool. That said, a couple pieces of advice:

1) Stay away from the small Cerveny. It's a bass trombone, and a terrible one at that. I've heard great things about the big one, but the small ones are absolute dogs unless you're playing Dvorak symphony 3rd parts. I've played 'em. Blech!

2) The Kalisons are great fun, and fabulous for a tubist. I'm sure the G&P ones will be equally fabulous.

3) I played on a cimbasso for a while which was a CC of my own construction, perhaps similar to Mr. Gnagey's (http://www.jrdhome.force9.co.uk/cimbasso.htm" target="_blank" target="_blank). I really liked the tone, but it's challenging to manage Verdi on it. Puccini is very cool on a big cimbasso; but Verdi gets around, and is much higher. Look at Verdi's Otello and see what I mean. I'm sure Sam's Eb would be a great answer! I should've thought of it. But my CC (with BBb slides as well) is in the hands of a Seattle player now.

4) If you get a valved instrument, you may find you are renting it out. It's extra money, sure. But I found I wanted to be attached to the instrument, so I decided to...

5) Play a slide instrument. Couple reasons for this: First, the rest of the bone section is NOT playing with valves. Verdi's trombone sections were all valve instruments, and in Italy, the slide instrument just wasn't common in the pits. Now they are. Second, some of the cimbasso parts are actually serpent/ophicleide/bass-thingy parts, so unless you're planning to bring one of those, it makes no difference. Third, the bones will thank you for playing something which can more readily tune to them. Fourth, you'll be able to play contra parts as well, from Varesse to Wagner; more work! Last, you'll be hired to play, since most tubists won't be able to just rent your slide contra and play.

6) Barking is part of the gig, and the conductors are going to look to you to do that from time to time. But the majority of the time, you are to blend with the bones - Verdi's goal for the instrument.

7) Go for an F or Eb instrument. It’s more flexible, and less distant from the bones. The bass bone player isn’t on a valved F instrument; he’s on a slide Bb instrument. Get a little closer to ‘em!
My own instrument is an F/D/BBb/AAb instrument of my own design. I've used it for more than I planned, and I love it, my Quintet loves it, and my section mates love it. And the real honkers in the bottom end are too much fun!

Really, as a serious tubist with any opera opportunities, a tubist should own a cimbasso/contra. Verdi's Requiem (an ophicleide part, yes), overtures, Gabrieli quintets... so much music benefits from the addition/substitution/use of this instrument. Run, don’t walk!

J.c.S.

P.S. Ophicleides are cool too!

P.P.S. Sam, can you post a pic of your Cimbasso?

Sam Gnagey · Post by **Sam Gnagey** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:26 am

You can see the picture of one of my E-flat cimbassi in my previous post now.
Sam

J.c. Sherman · Post by **J.c. Sherman** » Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:58 pm

We aim to please:

http://sites.google.com/site/jackofallb ... collection" target="_blank" target="_blank

That's a really lovely cimbasso, Sam!

J.c.S

TubeNet

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