Questions about Lidl 701, YBB 621, Silent Brass

[KHHS]

I'm considering to get a small, light BBb-Tuba. The two candidates I have in mind are the Lidl 701 and the Yamaha YBB 621. Since the 621 is a bit to expensive new and I have never ever seen a used one for sale (here in Germany that is), it will probably be the Lidl.
So as usual with such an acquisiton a lot of questions come up:
Is there anyone here at tubenet, who has played them both and can compare them (besides rotary vs. piston)?
I might have to order the Lidl unseen/unplayed. How consistent is their build quality?
I have a Yamaha Silent Brass mute. Will that fit in the Lidl 701 with its unusual bell flare?

[sloan]

I'm considering to get a small, light BBb-Tuba. The two candidates I have in mind are the Lidl 701 and the Yamaha YBB 621. Since the 621 is a bit to expensive new and I have never ever seen a used one for sale (here in Germany that is), it will probably be the Lidl.
So as usual with such an acquisiton a lot of questions come up:
Is there anyone here at tubenet, who has played them both and can compare them (besides rotary vs. piston)?
I might have to order the Lidl unseen/unplayed. How consistent is their build quality?
I have a Yamaha Silent Brass mute. Will that fit in the Lidl 701 with its unusual bell flare?

I have played both. I own a 621. When I played the Lidl, I thought it was a nice horn - but I
was not sorry that I already had the 621. If I had a Lidl, I *probably* would not find it necessary to swap it for a 621 - but given that I own a 621 I *DEFINITELY* would not swap it for the Lidl.

Consider the implications of your market research on the 621. Expensive new and NONE AVAILABLE used. Why do you suppose there are NONE AVAILABLE USED? I've owned my 621 for 11 years, and I'm quite sure I could sell it for more than I paid for it. But, I won't. Of course, I could have put that $$ into the stock market 11 years ago, and today it would be worth...oh...wait...nevermind.

I don't have any information on Lidl build quality, but the 621 has the reputation that THEY ALL PLAY EXACTLY THE SAME. Along with the Miraphone 186, the YBB 621 can be safely purchased sight-unseen. That said, it's really best to actually PLAY and evaluate for yourself the tuba you actually purchase. It's not so much a question of "which one is best" but rather "is this one good enough".

[KHHS]

... Why do you suppose there are NONE AVAILABLE USED?

Good point, in favor of the 621, I guess.

It's not so much a question of "which one is best" but rather "is this one good enough".

Another good point, in favor of the Lidl, I guess.

[Tubman]

I reluctantly had to sell my Lidl 701 just recently in order to buy a horn that would be more suitable for large ensemble, but I will tell you that, while I had it, it was the best little BBb I had ever played on. It is great for quintet and has great intonation. The buyer even sent me an email about how pleased he was with it after having had it for only a few weeks. The only reason I would advocate buying one over the YBB 621, however, is because I have yet to play on one and have nothing to go by, but you couldn't do much better buying the Lidl 701. Good luck with your choice, and I hope my input is more helpful than superfluous.

[sloan]

Just an observation, but the 621 is not "light" - I have the 621 F, which uses a good deal less metal than the BBb 621. My 621 F is three pounds heavier than my old Alexander 163 CC. The Alex is a *light* tuba. The Yamaha is somewhere between what you would expect and sort of heavy for its size.

Well, if light-weight is what you want, there's this Brazilian toy tuba that looks like a 621 from 20 paces.

If we're talking about a "walking about" tuba, I think there's a balance that needs to be struck between size, weight, sound, and durability.

But, you are correct - the YBB-621 is small, but not particularly light. Snap a "Blue Note" strap on it, and it's easy to maneuver on stage or street, but you still have to carry it.

If you want LIGHT, I'd suggest looking into a 3-valve Eb helicon. Now *that's* light!

[Kevin Hendrick]

Just an observation, but the 621 is not "light" - I have the 621 F, which uses a good deal less metal than the BBb 621. My 621 F is three pounds heavier than my old Alexander 163 CC. The Alex is a *light* tuba. The Yamaha is somewhere between what you would expect and sort of heavy for its size.

Well, if light-weight is what you want, there's this Brazilian toy tuba that looks like a 621 from 20 paces.

If we're talking about a "walking about" tuba, I think there's a balance that needs to be struck between size, weight, sound, and durability.

But, you are correct - the YBB-621 is small, but not particularly light. Snap a "Blue Note" strap on it, and it's easy to maneuver on stage or street, but you still have to carry it.

If you want LIGHT, I'd suggest looking into a 3-valve Eb helicon. Now *that's* light!

Actually, the Lidl 701 might work well in that regard also -- it's advertised as weighing 6.5 kg (a bit over 14 pounds).

[KHHS]

Finally, i (the OP) have ordered the Lidl and got it yesterday. Many favourable things have been said here about this tuba before and so far i can confirm everything. I ordered it sight-unseen and its as good as i hoped. Good build quality. The low range (down to DDb!) speaks surprisingly easy. The overall tone is nice - just a little bit smaller than that of my B&S pre-PT1 BBb-Tuba. But then the Lidl has the better intonation (i can use standard fingerings throughout my range) and the high range is a little bit easier on it.
And it's seems to match well with my favourite mouthpiece (Yamaha CB).

Question: What do you do first, when you get a factory-new Tuba? Oil something...?

Another question: The bottom valve caps stick. They have been screwed on very tight i guess. Is there a trick to get them open without risk of damage?

[jonesbrass]

Finally, i (the OP) have ordered the Lidl and got it yesterday. Many favourable things have been said here about this tuba before and so far i can confirm everything. I ordered it sight-unseen and its as good as i hoped. Good build quality. The low range (down to DDb!) speaks surprisingly easy. The overall tone is nice - just a little bit smaller than that of my B&S pre-PT1 BBb-Tuba. But then the Lidl has the better intonation (i can use standard fingerings throughout my range) and the high range is a little bit easier on it.
And it's seems to match well with my favourite mouthpiece (Yamaha CB).

Question: What do you do first, when you get a factory-new Tuba? Oil something...?

Another question: The bottom valve caps stick. They have been screwed on very tight i guess. Is there a trick to get them open without risk of damage?

Great to hear about your new Lidl! Here's a good link about rotary horn maintenance: http://www.osmun.com/reference/Rot_Maint.htm
The first thing I like to do with a new horn is to bathe it immediately. Use a good snake, clean it all out with warm soapy water and rinse completely. This will probably loosen the valve caps, also. If not, try putting some penetrating oil on them and let it sit for a while.
Good luck!

[hald]

Congratulations on getting a Lidl. I own the CC version and have been enjoying it immensely. When I first bought mine I was advised to oil the valves, but not bathe it or anything.

What mouthpiece did yours come with? Mine came with a Roger Bobo Yamaha. I am still experimenting with mouthpieces, and find the Bobo the best so far with the Lidl. I would like to try a Jim Self Yamaha, but haven't been able to locate one in a store. Today, in fact, I will visit some stores on a mouthpiece expedition.

I love the instrument. The only suggestion I'd have is regarding the case; I wish it had a small storage compartment for oil, extra mouthpiece, etc. What a voice! The Lidl sings!

[KHHS]

Mine came without a mouthpiece. I still have to find out which one is best with it. Now it's the same order as with my B&S: Yamaha CB, PT-44, Yamaha Jim Self, PT-65 (those i have tried so far). But probably just because i am used to the CB and PT44 i'm biased to them on the new tuba.
The Yamaha CB (Canadian Brass) has the most beautiful tone,while the PT-44 has more punch. Intonation-wise i actually can't tell yet not having adjusted to the Lidl.

The case is great, but as you said, it lacks additional storing compartments. Since the design of the Lidl-tubing is somewhat "airy" and leaves some space, i thought it might be possible to fix some sort of case right in the middle of the bottom (under the valve set) with enough space for the things you mentioned. But that would have to be an absolutely reliable fixing.

[imperialbari]

Congratulations on getting a Lidl. I own the CC version and have been enjoying it immensely. When I first bought mine I was advised to oil the valves, but not bathe it or anything.

What mouthpiece did yours come with? Mine came with a Roger Bobo Yamaha. I am still experimenting with mouthpieces, and find the Bobo the best so far with the Lidl. I would like to try a Jim Self Yamaha, but haven't been able to locate one in a store. Today, in fact, I will visit some stores on a mouthpiece expedition.

I love the instrument. The only suggestion I'd have is regarding the case; I wish it had a small storage compartment for oil, extra mouthpiece, etc. What a voice! The Lidl sings!

I kind of wonder what harm a bath or a flush would do to the Lidl?

Klaus

[jonesbrass]

Congratulations on getting a Lidl. I own the CC version and have been enjoying it immensely. When I first bought mine I was advised to oil the valves, but not bathe it or anything.

What mouthpiece did yours come with? Mine came with a Roger Bobo Yamaha. I am still experimenting with mouthpieces, and find the Bobo the best so far with the Lidl. I would like to try a Jim Self Yamaha, but haven't been able to locate one in a store. Today, in fact, I will visit some stores on a mouthpiece expedition.

I love the instrument. The only suggestion I'd have is regarding the case; I wish it had a small storage compartment for oil, extra mouthpiece, etc. What a voice! The Lidl sings!

I kind of wonder what harm a bath or a flush would do to the Lidl?

Klaus

[hald]

When I bought mine it wasn't a question of a bath doing harm or anything. This might be something that varies by instrument, that's all. On the mouthpieces, I'd like to try the CB too.

[Alex F]

Congratulations on the new horn. YOu made a veery good choice.

I bought mine from Lee Stofer a few years ago. This is a very well made tuba, with good valves, and capable of putting out considerably more sound than would be expected by its size. Mine also had the benefit of Lee's prep work. Mine came with a generic 24AW mouthpiece and the J. Winter case.

When I bought mine, these horns could be purchased for under $3,000US. No more.

[KHHS]

Mine also had the benefit of Lee's prep work.

Do you know, what kind of prep work that was? Anything I could try myself? (Though i'm very happy with it as it is unprepared.)

[Lee Stofer]

When Geneva International Corp. in chicago was importing the Libl tubas, I sold a number of them, mostly BBb, but I also sold the two CC Lidl tubas they imported.

There were occasional small factory glitches that I repaired, but for the most part I just thoroughly cleaned the instruments, including my chemical-cleaning that leaves the metal clean and stabilised inside the instrument, significantly reducing corrosion and wear. I would remove the factory rotor bumpers that look and feel like dried miniature marshmallows, and regulate the valves using top-quality black neoprene of the correct density. I lubricated these instruments with Hetman #12 rotor oil, #14 bearing and linkage oil on the bearings, #15 ball joint lubricant for the linkage, and #8 slide grease for the slides. If requested, I would lap the 1st valve slide, install neoprene O-rings and lubricate the 1st valve slide with Hetman #5 slide oil. These instruments all came from the factory with a generic 24AW mouthpiece (that I discovered was made in China), a good emergency spare mouthpiece to keep in the case if you didn't really care to play on it all the time. The Jakob Winter hard cases were nice, and the whole ensemble weighed little more than a professional euphonium in a hard case.

I certainly would no knock any of the Yamaha tubas, as they are well-made and perform quite well, but they are quite different in sound characteristics from the Lidl. The Yamaha tubas are heavier, and are more of what one of my teachers called an "Anglo-Saxon" style tuba (dark sound), whereas the Lidl is a fine example of the Czech tuba, a bit brighter and exhibiting a lot of tone color and complexity of sound. I used one of them on a quintet gig, and it was just delightful.

[KHHS]

... I would remove the factory rotor bumpers that look and feel like dried miniature marshmallows, and regulate the valves using top-quality black neoprene of the correct density. I lubricated these instruments with Hetman #12 rotor oil, #14 bearing and linkage oil on the bearings, #15 ball joint lubricant for the linkage, and #8 slide grease for the slides. If requested, I would lap the 1st valve slide, install neoprene O-rings and lubricate the 1st valve slide with Hetman #5 slide oil. ...

Thank you all very much for sharing your thoughts and (professional) experience.
TubeNet is just fantastic for an enthusiastic autodidact like me!

[Chriss2760]

I do most of my playing on my Miraphone 186 in BBb. That would be polka band, large German band and the occasional musical or church gig. I use my 621 (also in BBb) for my quint and jazz gigs. I play both horns through amplifiers, as needed, (!) more for sound texture than increasing the volume. What I would offer is that the two horns are completely different. The Mira has a larger presence, and the tone is more diffuse (lacking center.) Which isn't all bad. And it responds very well when I need to "step on it" to get us back on track. Even so, the horn absolutely plays itself. I like the Perantucci PT-88 and Paul Sidey's original SSH (stainless steel Helleberg) for this horn. The 88 gives the big foggy German sound and the SSH is SO predictable and powerful for the technical stuff.
The 621 requires more attention than the 186, but the payback is that it is flat-out the most responsive horn you'll ever play. The tone is centered, powerful, without being obnoxious, and very nimble. It seems to me that cup shaped MPs of not too great a bore work really well with these 3/4 horns. With a funnel MP or one that is really unrestricted in the throat it seems like the horn is sucking the breath out of you.
And no, the 621 isn't a light horn. I thought it would be, but it weighs the same as my 186, and it is a sturdy horn. Last winter I fell (it was icy) while moving from one location to another in our downtown and the bell smacked the pavement REALLY hard. Everyone (myself included) thought that the horn was toast, or at least the bell would need to be replaced. I was amazed to find NO damage to my horn whatsoever. We hit really hard. So I'm cool with the horn being a bit pudgy if it can take that kind of a shot and not wrinkle.
Hope that helps.

[tbn.al]

The Mira has a larger presence, and the tone is more diffuse (lacking center.) The 621 requires more attention than the 186 The tone is centered, powerful, without being obnoxious,

[KHHS]

It seems to me that cup shaped MPs of not too great a bore work really well with these 3/4 horns.

What would be examples of this category? What do you use with your 621?

I think "bigger bore = more breath" is not always true, at least my Yamaha CB is rather efficient.