Looking for bell swapping information/concerns..?

[jon112780]

Before I start, I would like to mention getting another horn and/or using a different mouthpiece are not options at this point...

I've tried countless mouthpieces throughout the years, and keep coming back to my current one because of: intonation, response, and how evenly the horn (in question) plays with it in all registers.

My 983 Eb plays very well, the intonation is great, the valves are the best on any horn I've ever played on any horn, and I know the horn like the back of my hand.

However, the tuba sound in my head has gradually changed throughout the 10 years I've had it. I want less 'fluff' and more 'core' in my sound, I guess you could say I am warming up to the German tuba sound, just dangling my feet in the water, but have no intent of jumping in.

I'm not going to switch to an F, and I thought the Norweigan Star and Starlight were great horns; except for the low BBb (talk about reinventing the wheel), and I really like piston valves. If not for the low BBb, I would stop whining and used to rotars.

On most German style tubas rotary tubas, the bell throat is tighter and flares more dramatically. On the other extreme, (Besson 981/982/983 Eb, Rudy Meinl 4345 piston CC, Conn 52J54/56J, Yamaha 621 F/CC/BBb) have a larger bell throat and a somewhat late flare. Most of these are British or American style horns with a slightly smaller bore and piston valves.

Please understand I'm not trying to make a British style Eb sound exactly like a German style F, just hoping to get less 'fluff' and more 'core' in my sound, after exhausting my other options.

***In the event that someone out there in 'tubaland' has either of the Mirafone Eb's and the low BBb is great, and might be considering selling/trading, PM or email me. If not, then keep reading***

While I am expecting swapping bells to not be cheap, it is still the only option (as I see it), and is a better alternative keep buying/seilling mouthpieces (hasn't worked so far), and/or doing the same to horns (I did that with a couple CC's- not doing it again).

I'm looking at a Mirafone or Hirsbrunner F/Eb bell, mostly due to the smaller throat size, bell hight, and the diameter of the small end of the bell (that must be the same size or slightly smaller to be able to trim down

Aside from moving braces, reattatching the leadpipe, and getting a longer tuning slide, what other surprises might I encounter 'soundwise' if I go ahead with this and play the horn for the first time after the swap? Any scary stories, or tales of woe due to 'changing a horn that played just fine before' the operation?

I mean, I'm not planning on grabbing a random leadpipe or valve section, but a slightly different bell of roughly the same size...

I do understand "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." But if it can be changed (improved) with a slight alteration, why not?

[cjk]

A 15 inch Besson Imperial bell might give you what you're looking for. It will certainly be loud and can give you quite a bit of edge. I doubt the Besson E flat bottom bow differs much in the last 30 years, so I would expect it would fit.

[cambrook]

If I was in your position I'd contact Alex Kidston, he's a lovely guy and very helpful. This post was about a 982 with Hirsbrunner bell

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23369&p=200049#p200049" target="_blank

All the best,

Cam

[imperialbari]

Changing the mouthpiece is not an option because of intonation, response, and evenness over the range. Do you expect these factors remaing the same after swapping the bell?

Making a British piston tuba sounding like a German rotary tuba will be something of a task, as they differ very much in building style. The German rotary instrument is often out of much thinner sheet metal and is less rigidly built.

Depending on your mouthpiece there may be another route towards more core to the sound, but I cannot tell without knowing what mouthpiece you are using now.

Klaus

[tuba-tobias]

Back in '78 I met Roger Bobo in Stockholm and he told me he had gone exactly the opposite way, putting a british bell on a german tuba.
The bell he had used was one from a Boosey Eb, pre Sovereign 19", I guess the same 15" as CJK mentions. The tuba was a Miraphone 184.
He liked the sound better after the bell swap and also how the sound projected.
I know this is not an answer to the question of this topic, but it is a statement in the debate and worth considering.
The picture shows RB playing the 184 (with the B&H bell) at the Scandinavian Brass Symposium in '78, the piece was "Six Likes".

Bobo.jpg

[Wyvern]

I really cannot see using a MW bell is going to make that much difference to the sound as they have about the same throat and bell diameter as the 983. I think you would be better looking for an old Imperial Eb with 15" bell going cheap and use that, but...

...really far more sensible to look for a new tuba which provides the sound you are searching. Have you tried a MW 2040/5? The low BBb really is rock solid and it would provide just the German tone which it sounds like you desire.

[imperialbari]

Back in '78 I met Roger Bobo in Stockholm and he told me he had gone exactly the opposite way, putting a british bell on a german tuba.
The bell he had used was one from a Boosey Eb, pre Sovereign 19", I guess the same 15" as CJK mentions. The tuba was a Miraphone 184.
He liked the sound better after the bell swap and also how the sound projected.
I know this is not an answer to the question of this topic, but it is a statement in the debate and worth considering.
The picture shows RB playing the 184 (with the B&H bell) at the Scandinavian Brass Symposium in '78, the piece was "Six Likes".

Bobo.jpg

Another photo of the same instrument:



and a desription of it:

http://www.rogerbobo.com/instruments/d_tuba.shtml

[iiipopes]

Two people with substantial experience with replacing and swapping bells on tubas, and can give you some practical advice on how it affects the instrument:

Matt Walters @ Dillon Music
Dan Schultz @ thevillagetinker.com

From personal experience, the bell can make all the difference in the world as to flavor of tone. In the university community concert band I play in (I'm off this year to help my son in Scouts, which meets the same night) there are three of us with 186's: one with the old "stovepipe" 16 1/2 inch bell, one with the newer 17 3/4 inch bell, and me with my retrofit wide throat, small flare St Pete bell. They sound different enough to be three different makes: the 16 1/2 inch traditional stove pipe has that traditional "German" Miraphone sound, the 17 3/4 bell is a little broader and more "vanilla" in tone, and mine has a good rich core that looks east towards Alex territory.

With different flares and diameters, there will be intonation issues if they are not addressed up front. When Besson first went from the 17 inch bell to the 19 inch bell on the BBb 4-valve comp Sov, this was not addressed, and all the first run of these tubas played flat and had to be "cut." The flare being different on my bell meant the stack ended up being shorter, so I had to have a longer main tuning slide. This altered the balance between cylindrical/conical tubing and moved some of the nodes, so just like a flugelhorn, my upper octave can be a tad flat, my lowest octave, if I don't relax and open up a good "Doh" in the throat to get the intonation centered can be a tad sharp, but now mid staff B nat, C, and Db are fine or only need slight lipping, while only midline D needs the alternate 1+2 fingering, instead of the entire range of 5th partials being notoriously flat.

As tubas are designed as a unit, your mileage will vary and you will get everything from stellar results to garbage results, with usually the results being somewhere in between and changing some of the conventional characteristics of the conventional model. But predicting exactly what will change is useless, as there are so many variables.