Schiller

[sailn2ba]

What's the scoop on Schiller tubas? They appear to be made in Frankfurt. . .? Are they on a par with Miraphone?

[pgym]

Schiller's DESIGN ENGINEERING is done in Frankfurt; their FACTORY (or, more precisely, the contract-manufacturer who actually makes their horns) is in Shanghai, China:

Schiller Today.
Continuing to innovate Schiller Musical Instruments today by manufacturing and engineering brass and woodwind instruments. The Schiller Instruments are sold to musicians all around the world. All of the Instruments are made with a Hands on Approach and the instruments are affordable to all musicians. Schiller is now worldwide based company with engineering in Germany and corporate offices in the USA and Shanghai, China.

Quality Standards.
Our Highly Experienced Technical team uses only the finest raw materials to ensure world class quality. The designs of all instruments are exclusively from Germany (in some cases from USA, when noted).

http://www.schillerinstruments.com/company.html" target="_blank" target="_blank

Pgym.

[Dan Schultz]

Schiller's DESIGN ENGINEERING is done in Frankfurt; their FACTORY (or, more precisely, the contract-manufacturer who actually makes their horns) is in Shanghai, China:

Schiller Today.
Continuing to innovate Schiller Musical Instruments today by manufacturing and engineering brass and woodwind instruments. The Schiller Instruments are sold to musicians all around the world. All of the Instruments are made with a Hands on Approach and the instruments are affordable to all musicians. Schiller is now worldwide based company with engineering in Germany and corporate offices in the USA and Shanghai, China.

Quality Standards.
Our Highly Experienced Technical team uses only the finest raw materials to ensure world class quality. The designs of all instruments are exclusively from Germany (in some cases from USA, when noted).

http://www.schillerinstruments.com/company.html" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
Pgym.

Hmmm.... could that statement mean that these are COPIES of German engineered music instruments.

[sailn2ba]

Thanks. Do any of you have one?

[Sylvano]

I have a Bb Hirsbrunner copy, a .547 trombone with gold brass bell, removable leadpipe (3) and Thayer (copy) valve AND soon to receive a 5v C.

I'll let you know how the C is playing when I get it.

[sailn2ba]

Holy cats! How does the pseudo-Hirsbrunner play?

[The Big Ben]

Someone bought a Schiller here in the last six months.

Whomever:

Any comments?

[Sylvano]

The bumpers on the rotors were all too big.
I took the bouncy rubbers off, replaced them with corks and adjusted the rotors.
Now it plays well.
Legato isn't as easy as my King (smaller bore, perinet valves) but it has a bigger tone.
There a lot a resistance with the 4th valve. It's not progressive bore through the valves (.770 all 4) and I'm thinking about some modifications. First, I'll reverse the rotation for valve 3 and 4.
I need to talk to a few experts about this. There's a long section with even bore (from first valve through the tuning slide and almost all the way to the next ferrule) and wonder what could be done. Cut it to C maybe?

I'll see when this next horn (5 v rotary C) gets in.

[iiipopes]

Cutting to C requires elimination of @24" of leadpipe or bugle. Either way, you risk screwing up the taper and throwing the horn out of tune with itself.

4th valve stuffiness may be a brace or node placement in a bend issue, not a bore issue. Remember, the 186 has always had the same @.770/.772 bore and they are not necessarily stuffy. Everybody thinks you automatically need a larger 4th valve bore because everyone forgets a brass instrument, once you pass the transition from mouthpiece to leadpipe, functions with static wave theory, not flow theory. So if a brace, bend, or valve is in the wrong place it will interfere with the nodes and antinodes and that is usually what causes the stuffiness.

I have a friend who has had more than one Conn 5XJ models, and regardless of how "well" the 5th loop is done, whether stock or custom, he always ends up complaining and taking it off. I think it's because of where the nodes fall in that area of the horn. The next time I see him I'm going to recommend he do the Getzen Canadian Brass solution instead and put the 5th long whole step rotor ahead of the block and see what he thinks of it there.

[Ace]

I'll see when this next horn (5 v rotary C) gets in.

Sylvano,

What is the price on the Schiller 5 valve C tuba?

Ace

[Sylvano]

$785 + $70 for shipping. That's for a 5v C.
It was cheap because the bell is damaged.
But hey, that's the way I received my B&S 4197 (PT20P) years ago. I had the bell rolled back into shape and it works fine now.
There was also a Bb Schiller for $800 and something. I wonder who bought it.

[TUBAD83]

I bought the damaged Schiller BBb that was advertised on ebay---the bell was slightly creased and bent in one place. A trip to my horn guy will have looking like new in no time. Its been mentioned a quite few times in this forum but make no mistake this IS a Hirshbrunner 192 copy and a very good copy I think. It arrived today and other the damage to the bell it looked great--the lacquer finish is very consistent and well done, after oiling the rotors, they are fast and quiet. Sat the horn down with a tuner and checked intonation--from pedal Bb to C above the staff I was either on the money or within 15 cents above pitch (that was without adjusting any slides). Big round sound overall, very easy to blow. This is a "step up" horn for me, going from a .748 bore to 770 so lots of practice in the immediate future. My question is how can these copies be sold on the open market unless Hirschbrunner has given permission? This is obviously a case of copyright infringement and there is no way Hirschbrunner (and for that matter, Miraphone and MW) is not aware that this is going on. Anyway I am totally happy with my new ax and can hardly to perform with it!

[pgym]

My question is how can these copies be sold on the open market unless Hirschbrunner has given permission? This is obviously a case of copyright infringement

No, it isn't. Tuba designs—or any other designs—are not copyrightable.

COPYRIGHTS protect the rights of authors of "original works of authorship" including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works, both published and unpublished. The copyright protects the form of expression rather than the subject matter of the writing. A description of a machine is copyrightable, but the copyright only prevents others from copying the description; it does not prevent others from writing their own description or from making and using the machine.

PATENTS protect the rights of an inventor or discoverer of any new and useful process, machine, article of manufacture, composition of matter, or any new and useful improvement thereof. Individual components of a tuba (valve assemblies, water keys, slide triggers, adjustable gap receivers, etc. are patentable; the designs of the instruments, by definition, are not.

TRADEMARKS and SERVICEMARKS protect the rights of mark holder to the exclusive use of its unique identifier for its product. Marks prevent others from using a confusingly similar mark, but DO NOT prevent others from making the same goods or from selling the same goods or services under a clearly different mark. Designs are markable IF AND ONLY IF they are DISTINCTIVE and NON-FUNCTIONAL. Hirschbrunner's logo is trademarkable; the design of its tubas and euphoniums are not.

Furthermore, in WAL-MART STORES, INC. V. SAMARA BROTHERS, INC. (99-150) 529 U.S. 205 (2000) 165 F.3d 120), the US Supreme Court held that:

design, like color, is not inherently distinctive

and that, to prevail in a trademark infringement suit, the plaintiff must demonstrate the DISTINCTIVENESS of its mark, the EXISTENCE OF SECONDARY MEANING for the mark, EVIDENCE OF ACTUAL CONFUSION between the marked item and unmarked item in the mind of the consumer, and the INTENT of the copying party TO CREATE CONFUSION in the mind of the consumer. Further, the Court held that intention to copy does not, in and of itself, establish the intention to confuse:

evidence of intentional copying raises a presumption that a second comer intended to create a confusing similarity of appearance and succeeded. But if comparison of the works reveals no fair jury issue concerning likelihood of confusion, then intent to copy, even if found from the proffered evidence, would not establish a Lanham Act violation.

Since the designs are not protected property, copies—excepting any patented components—can legally be made and sold without encumberance.

Pgym.

[TUBAD83]

As I stated before, its a good copy but NOT "the real deal"--If I was a pro musician I would not use this horn even if it performed as well as the original--having a rep for using a "knock-off" can be VERY detrimental to one's career. For what I needed and for my budget, this horn works for me and works well. Thanks Pgym for your detailed explanation--you answered several questions and appreciate it.

[pigman]

Schiller's DESIGN ENGINEERING is done in Frankfurt; their FACTORY (or, more precisely, the contract-manufacturer who actually makes their horns) is in Shanghai, China:

Schiller Today.
Continuing to innovate Schiller Musical Instruments today by manufacturing and engineering brass and woodwind instruments. The Schiller Instruments are sold to musicians all around the world. All of the Instruments are made with a Hands on Approach and the instruments are affordable to all musicians. Schiller is now worldwide based company with engineering in Germany and corporate offices in the USA and Shanghai, China.

Quality Standards.
Our Highly Experienced Technical team uses only the finest raw materials to ensure world class quality. The designs of all instruments are exclusively from Germany (in some cases from USA, when noted).

BRIDGE FOR SALE LOCATION BROOKLYN NY. GREAT INCOME POTENTIAL
OOOOOOOO SOME CASES ARE FROM THE US!!!!!!!

[Rick Denney]

As I stated before, its a good copy but NOT "the real deal"--If I was a pro musician I would not use this horn even if it performed as well as the original--having a rep for using a "knock-off" can be VERY detrimental to one's career. For what I needed and for my budget, this horn works for me and works well. Thanks Pgym for your detailed explanation--you answered several questions and appreciate it.

You do realize, of course, that a Holton 345 is a knock-off of a York, and probably as much worse than the York in terms of construction quality than a well-made Chinese tuba compared to a Hirsbrunner? And you do realize that a Hirsbrunner HB-50 is a knock-off of a York? As is a Nirschl 6/4? And a Yamaha YCB-826? And a Weril is a knock-off of a Yamaha 621?

At what point does a "reproduction" become a "knock-off"? When it's made in China?

I've played a few pro gigs and I've known lots of pros. I have heard of pros making judgments of other players based on equipment, but always because they knew (or thought they knew) the limitations of that equipment for the gig in question. I suspect someone playing a Hirsbrunner knock-off who is good enough to sound like a top pro won't have any trouble with their career, at least because of that.

Rick "thinking all tubas are knock-offs of earlier or more famous designs to some extent, including many done solely to compete on price" Denney

[Sylvano]

Hey TUBAD83,
I'm glad you bought the damaged Bb. You can't go wrong with a horn at this price.
Check the alignment of your rotors. All the bumpers on mine were too big. You can either take an Exacto and trim them or replace them with corks.

Patents: The trombone I bought has a "Thayer" type valve on it and the Schiller Model T is coming out with a "Miller" type valve. I wonder if that blue prints have been sold to the Chinese?

Pros playing knock-offs:
In order to get a job in a major orchestra you need to be a God. If you'd be that good of a lawyer, you'd be making more than 10X the salary of a tuba God.
To get a job with a smaller or "per service" orchestra, you still need to have skills that have cost you personally and financially in order to get that job. Let's say you need to be a "Saint". These gigs pay less than your average plumbing jobs and I don't see plumbers with a basement full of $7,000 to $21,000 tools. It's not what you play but how you play that counts. I have no shame about having one of those knock-offs in my arsenal.

Talking about arsenal, I used to challenge other Sgts (or above) in the Army who laughed at musicians by asking them if they bought their own Jeep and weapons and if they practiced on weekends and holidays. I never got smart replies from them.

[pgym]

HPatents: The trombone I bought has a "Thayer" type valve on it and the Schiller Model T is coming out with a "Miller" type valve. I wonder if that blue prints have been sold to the Chinese?

FYI, US patents issued prior to June 8, 1995 had a duration of 17 years; patents filed prior to June 8, 1995 but issued after June 8, 1995 had a duration of either 17 or 20 years from the effective filing date, whichever was longer; patents filed after June 8, 1995 have a duration of 20 years.

The patent for the Thayer valve was issued in 1984 and expired in 2001, so there are no legal issues regarding the manufacture and sale of exact copies of it.

The US patent for the Miller valve appears to be enforceable until 2018, however, the existence of the patent, in and of itself, does not necessarily render the sale of Miller type valves an infringement.

First, unlike a copyright, however, a patent does NOT grant the holder the exclusive right to make, use, offer for sale, sell, or import the product, in only grants the holder the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, selling, or importing the invention into the territory governed by the issuing authority, so it is perfectly legal for a mfg in a country that has not issued a patent for a particular invention to copy and sell that invention anywhere that the invention is not protected by a patent.

Second, while copyright protection extends to derivative works, the concept of "derivative work" does not exist in patent law. A design that improves on the Miller valve, for example, may be separately patentable (again, patents may be issued for an improvement on an existing process, machine, or article of manufacture).

So, call me cynical, but on a practical level, whether or not a given "Miller type" valve offered for sale infringes Robert Miller's patent depends on whether or not his lawyer can convince a judge/jury that it does.

Pgym.

[pgym]

Hey TUBAD83,
These gigs pay less than your average plumbing jobs and I don't see plumbers with a basement full of $7,000 to $21,000 tools.

'Cuz they keep 'em in their trucks.

[TUBAD83]

Pros playing knock-offs:
In order to get a job in a major orchestra you need to be a God. If you'd be that good of a lawyer, you'd be making more than 10X the salary of a tuba God.
To get a job with a smaller or "per service" orchestra, you still need to have skills that have cost you personally and financially in order to get that job. Let's say you need to be a "Saint". These gigs pay less than your average plumbing jobs and I don't see plumbers with a basement full of $7,000 to $21,000 tools. It's not what you play but how you play that counts. I have no shame about having one of those knock-offs in my arsenal.

A couple of questions for our professional colleagues: 1) What would be your criteria for assessing a "knock-off" (or a "reproduction"...is there a difference?) and if it met your criteria, would you recommend it to your students?; 2) In your opinion, is it fair to compare a knock-off to the original and have the expectation that it will perform as well or even close to the original?