Valved Trombones, are they still made?

[Dan Schultz]

Basically, Cimbassos could be considered valve trombones, or couldn´t they ?
I haven´t heard people refer to them as being of poor design....

I built mine in BBb... same pitch as a BBb tuba. I consider it more of a trombone than a tuba even though the pitch is the same. It's a poor design with respect to what we usually expect from a horn with a more conical bugle. But... a cimbasso IS what it is.

If you take a close look at the European symphonies, it appears that the rotary-valved trombone is the instrument of choice... as opposed to the use of what we consider to be a conventional slide trombone.

[Dan Schultz]

If you take a close look at the European symphonies, it appears that the rotary-valved trombone is the instrument of choice... as opposed to the use of what we consider to be a conventional slide trombone.

Can you clarify this? Do you mean that when using valve trombones, the European symphonies use rotaries? Or are you saying that they use valve trombones as opposed to a regular trombone? I don't know much, but that seems very strange and possibly untrue...

Kind regards.

My statement is pure conjecture based only on what I've seen in various images of European symphonies. I DO NOT have actual first-hand experience with European symphonies. Pictures I've run across indicate to me that rotors are preferred over pistons and valves are used more than slides. Maybe one of our European forum members can enlighten us more. Klaus?? Kurt??

It's also interesting to me that Cerveny does not even list a slide trombone on their website. Only rotary-valved trombones.

[Donn]

It's also interesting to me that Cerveny does not even list a slide trombone on their website. Only rotary-valved trombones.

The web site I'm looking at puts the Cerveny models under "V.F.Cerveny Rotary Valve Instruments", further explained in the history section: "... Production program is still concentrated on the wide bore rotary valve instruments, the very best of the V.F.Cerveny heritage." So, if it weren't for rotary valve trombones, they'd have no trombones at all. And if there ever was a manufacturer to hang in there with every type of brass instrument they ever offered, it would be Cerveny.

Seems to me the Miraphone catalogue used to have a similar series of rotary trombones, including an F bass and maybe an alto. No longer? Possibly because the Europeans have been moving to slide trombone, and there's no longer much of a market?

[Dan Schultz]

It's also interesting to me that Cerveny does not even list a slide trombone on their website. Only rotary-valved trombones.

...... Possibly because the Europeans have been moving to slide trombone, and there's no longer much of a market?

I still wish some of our European forum members would chime in on this. I'm wondering if rotors are probably the most traditional type of valve and trends are perhaps moving towards more 'western' type of instruments. Most Americans (like me!) seem to be focused on only what they see here in the US and don't realize the vast array of music instruments that are in use around The World.

[imperialbari]

[The Big Ben]

It's also interesting to me that Cerveny does not even list a slide trombone on their website. Only rotary-valved trombones.

The web site I'm looking at puts the Cerveny models under "V.F.Cerveny Rotary Valve Instruments", further explained in the history section: "... Production program is still concentrated on the wide bore rotary valve instruments, the very best of the V.F.Cerveny heritage." So, if it weren't for rotary valve trombones, they'd have no trombones at all. And if there ever was a manufacturer to hang in there with every type of brass instrument they ever offered, it would be Cerveny.

There is a picture of a Cerveny rotary valve bass trombone in F on the Dillon site. It sure looks like it would be a cimbasso if a 90 deg. fitting was put in the middle.

This is an interesting discussion for me because I would like to play in my local community orchestra. I want to play the tuba but, amazingly, in my small town, there are nine tuba players, which I did not know when I took up tuba. Two play in the orchestra already so that is out for me. However, the director told me if I played Trombone, I could join. Good to hear that valve trombones actually 'sound like trombones'. I think I'll see it I can find a budget valve trombone and, if it works out, maybe consider a new one.

Anybody have one for sale? <$400?

[MartyNeilan]

This is an interesting discussion for me because I would like to play in my local community orchestra. I want to play the tuba but, amazingly, in my small town, there are nine tuba players, which I did not know when I took up tuba. Two play in the orchestra already so that is out for me. However, the director told me if I played Trombone, I could join. Good to hear that valve trombones actually 'sound like trombones'. I think I'll see it I can find a budget valve trombone and, if it works out, maybe consider a new one.

Even the best valve trombones still have intonation limits due to the three pistons and usually no slide adjustments. Learning slide is NOT that hard and excellent training for your ear.
To me, the chops and different air usage are the hardest part of switching to trombone, no the slide.
And, the secret to learning slide positions? "muscle memory"
Use a tuner to initially find the positions, and develop the muscle memory to remember them. Let the ear fine tune, as 4th position for a low G may be slightly different than a 4th position D.

[Donn]

To me, the chops and different air usage are the hardest part of switching to trombone, no the slide.

Why is it so hard? I already played tuba when I tried to take up bass trombone, and that thing just sucked the air out of me like playing a sewer pipe, and murdered my chops too. I haven't had as much trouble with the valve trombone, even though I really don't spend enough time on it for any significant competence, so I'm guessing that the slide actually does have something to do with it? Maybe when you aren't good enough to coordinate your blowing very well with the slide position, there's a lot of wasted effort?

[Tuba Guy]

That's actually something that I'm planning on working on this summer. My slide technique has always been passable, but never anything special. I have been working on consistancy, and it actually does make everything better. I was able to make it through entire excerpts without breathing (though I should have), my articulation and consistancy of tone definitely improved. I would still use a valve horn whenever necissary, but getting good with the slide will definitely make a slide horn that much better.

[Dan Schultz]

To me, the chops and different air usage are the hardest part of switching to trombone, no the slide.

Why is it so hard? I already played tuba when I tried to take up bass trombone, and that thing just sucked the air out of me like playing a sewer pipe, and murdered my chops too. I haven't had as much trouble with the valve trombone, even though I really don't spend enough time on it for any significant competence, so I'm guessing that the slide actually does have something to do with it? Maybe when you aren't good enough to coordinate your blowing very well with the slide position, there's a lot of wasted effort?

There is A LOT of difference between playing a slide trombone and a valved trombone. It's called restriction. Even though a slide trombone has a venturi just beyond the mouthpiece... it IS just like blowing through and open pipe compared to the restriction through valves. Your chops get really tuned to that restriction which varies A LOT depending on how many valves are pushed down. If you don't believe what I'm saying, just blow air (not buzzing) through the horn with no valves depressed and then note how much the restriction changes as you add valves.

[Donn]

Well, it's not that I didn't believe what you were saying, but I did try it. Now, I don't believe what you're saying. There may have been a subtle difference, between 0 and 1-3. Blew through an Eb tuba afterwards, and it naturally seemed to offer significantly less resistance. Going by this, you would expect the slide bass trombone to feel somewhere between the Eb tuba and the valve trombone, in terms of air? I sure wouldn't expect that.

[Dan Schultz]

Well, it's not that I didn't believe what you were saying, but I did try it. Now, I don't believe what you're saying. There may have been a subtle difference, between 0 and 1-3. Blew through an Eb tuba afterwards, and it naturally seemed to offer significantly less resistance. Going by this, you would expect the slide bass trombone to feel somewhere between the Eb tuba and the valve trombone, in terms of air? I sure wouldn't expect that.

You didn't notice much resistance between 'open' and 1-2-3-4 ??

[Donn]

You didn't notice much resistance between 'open' and 1-2-3-4 ??

1-2-3-4 I don't know - it's an ordinary 3-piston valve trombone, so that combination doesn't obtain.

Your point about restriction may be valid, I'm just saying that blowing through the instrument does not, for me, add up the way it should to demonstrate that point. Especially when I compare my valve trombone to a tuba, this way - the tuba responds differently when I play it, presumably because of the conical shape, but when I blow through it, it sucks up air like anything.