Big King

[J.c. Sherman]

King 2341. The current instrument has the same bore, more reasonable bell diameter (better sound, believe me!), and is the direct decendant of the tuba pictured. And there are many, many of the pictured horn in the world - keep an eye on eBay!

J.c.S.

[Dan Schultz]

2341 is correct but the 1241 is nearly identical except for a modified leadpipe and a few other manufacturing changes. You can get just as much 'bang for your buck' with one of the older 12xx series. That bell would be either a 22" (older) or 19" (newer). The bores are the same... .687".

Good solid horns. Don't be afraid to buy one of the older ones.

[ken k]

i havce an old 3 valver for sale if interested:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=33649" target="_blank

There is also a newer 4 valver, very similar to the one pictured, on the For Sale forum.
k

[Lew]

This looks like a 1241 to me, not a 2341. The 1241 has a fixed top first slide while the 2341 has a movable slide. This looks fixed to me. Also, the 1241's had larger bells than the 2341, so if this has a 22" bell it would be a 1241 vs the 20" bell on the 2341. I owned one of the two piece 2341s and now own a one piece 2341, and I like the new one better.

Some have said that the 1241s are better players, but I have never tried them side by side. If you can find them, 1241's usually sell for a reasonable price, especially the three valve versions. I remember hearing somewhere that more of these have been made in their various model designations than any other tuba model, so there are lots around. They are in high school band rooms throughout the country.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I believe it to be a 1241. The tip off is the 3rd valve slide, with the 3 loops.

[Dan Schultz]

This looks like a 1241 to me, not a 2341. The 1241 has a fixed top first slide while the 2341 has a movable slide. ......

This has been an argument for quite a while. While it's true that the 1240/41-2340/41 tubas have probably been in production longer that any other American tuba... It's not clear if even Conn knows exactly what makes for the different model numbers. There were many 'running changes' throughout the many years they were made. There were significant changes in the 3rd valve wrap and also the leadpipe. According to a well-respected parts supplier, the 12XX production ceased at serial number 780899 and 23XX production started at serial number 780901. June 1980 was the stop of the 12XX model and the start of the 23XX model. The detachable bell continued through both model numbers but is not offered on current production. The very early 1235 (Eb) and the 1240 (BBb) tubas had FIXED recording bells (not detachable). In my opinion, those old fixed bells were the best playing Kings of all.

[ger]

What does this supplier know that we don't? It would be a very exact end to a long discussion...

[Dan Schultz]

What does this supplier know that we don't? It would be a very exact end to a long discussion...

It's pretty much spelled out in the Allied parts catalog.... in terms of what serial numbers are tied to dates and models. They have a history of being pretty accurate.

However... there are still a few unknowns regarding EXACTLY when some of the changes took place..... the 1st slide flip, the elimination of the 'curley-cue' on the 3rd wrap, when the bells changed from fixed to detachable and then back to fixed again, when the bell went from 22" to 19", when the angle of the recording bell changed, and some other stuff I can't recall at the moment. King could have changed the model number for no reason at all if they chose to do so. All one can assume is that the model numbers changed at serial number 780900. UMI was involved at that time and even the Conn 15J was changed to the King 1140 in 1985. THAT was REALLY confusing since the 15J was a front-action tuba and the King was a top-action.

[Wyvern]

The large bell on the older KING tuba's and Sousaphones is made that way for a reason - it functions as an acoustical matching transformer - matching the impedance of the air outside the horn with the air inside the horn, thus resulting in easier playing (not as hard to blow).

That is very interesting. Can you explain more how that works?

[Rick Denney]

I would only add that impedance is resistance in the frequency domain. Simple resistance affects all frequencies, including just blowing air through the horn without buzzing your lips. But impedance will affect some frequencies more than others.

The tuba has an impedance curve based on its length and taper; the impedance varies over the range of frequencies. Some frequencies resonate and others are damped. The resonant frequencies make for easier blowing because they reflect a pulse back down the tubing so that it arrives back at the embouchure in time to reinforce the next pulse.

When we play a tuba without a bell, we usually find it to be stuffy. The reason is that the lack of bell flare causes a bunch of frequencies to be reflected that don't reinforce the next buzz, and make the instrument harder to blow. Those extra frequencies also make the sound less clear and more noisy, similar to buzzing a mouthpiece alone.

So, the bell matches the impedance by damping unresonant frequencies and reinforcing resonant frequencies (including the harmonics of the buzzing frequency). That's why the bell affects the tone of the tuba so much. The reinforced frequencies meet with low resistance at those frequencies and the unreinforced frequencies are absorbed by high resistance at those frequencies. That frequency-dependent resistance is impedance.

But there is another role to the bell shape, and that is projection patterns and propagation. Once the bell is wide enough, extra width probably affects propagation and projection more than impedance. The narrow bell of a the typical tall rotary tuba has not only a narrow-bell sound, but also a directional propagation patter. The wide bell has a different sound (fluffier or broader), and also propagates the sound in a wider array of directions. I think the propagation and project patterns affect how an instrument works in a hall as much as the impedance.

Rick "agreeing that the old 1241's are remarkably resonant and playable, but so are the good examples of the modern 2341 with the one-piece bell" Denney