What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

[tubatom91]

I am not a big fan of playing Sousa marches on my 188, they should be more fun on my 21J...eventually

[joebob]

As has already been mentioned in this thread, the CC tuba is slightly shorter in tubing length than the BB flat tuba and this often translates to a slightly better response (there are many exceptions to this I'm sure). Slightly better response can make a big difference in the clarity or perceived clarity of the sound and articulation. In a professional orchestra audition (in the U.S.), the committee making the decisions places a very high premium on clarity (as well as rhythm, pitch, tone quality, etc.). There are tradeoffs to consider. A BB flat tuba may have a "bigger" sound that you like better than your CC. However, for orchestral audition purposes I would err on the side of slightly more clarity as opposed to slightly bigger sound. This is one big reason many professionals choose the CC tuba.

[tubashaman2]

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[tubashaman2]

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[jonesbrass]

I really liked your post, Rick, but I can't agree with #8 or #9.

My post isn't based on what should be, but rather what is (at least in some places). Professors are subject to biases and myths like the rest of us. My sense is that a person playing a Bb tuba in a college program has something to prove beyond what his mates have when playing their C tubas. Kudos to professors who don't allow that to happen.

I was looking at the OP's question in the pure sense: what is the real difference, biases notwithstanding, but I understand your point.

But laziness has no excuse in a college program. If a professor senses reluctance to try instruments in different pitches, then that professor would be justified in pursuing whether the reason is musically justified or just laziness.

My point on this one is, if your playing is inadequate on BBb, why on earth would you want anyone to learn another keyed tuba? Learning the new one should only come after mastery of the first. To copy your analogy, you shouldn't move on to trigonometry or calculus if you don't really have a solid foundation of algebra.

Let me say it from a different perspective. Several of us were listening to a demonstration of technical wizardry by Roland Szentpali a few years ago at the Army Conference. He was a teenager at the time, as I recall. We had this feeling that if he decided he needed facility on any given tuba, he would have it by the end of the week.

Agreed. And his ability to master the other ones quickly is in direct proportion to his mastery of the tuba he already plays, therefore why force someone to switch until they can master the first?
Carl "appreciating the lively, friendly debate" Jones

[TUBAD83]

The tuba community in the US has been living with a school of thought that is based, for the most part, on bias and incorrect perceptions. A small group of pros started switching to CCs then, eventually, more pros switched over--a personal preference turned into a requirement and then turned into dogma: you WILL switch over if you are a serious tubist and want to play in a major orchestra. this has caused C horns to considered "Professional" horns and Bb horns are considered inferior (check just about any website where both are sold). This kind of thinking needs to stop--Its out of date and just plain silly. Lets have a return to selecting a horn based on personal preference and not the dictates of some ridiculous tradition.

JJ

[sloan]

My point on this one is, if your playing is inadequate on BBb, why on earth would you want anyone to learn another keyed tuba? Learning the new one should only come after mastery of the first. To copy your analogy, you shouldn't move on to trigonometry or calculus if you don't really have a solid foundation of algebra.

I disagree with the analogy AND with the conclusion. First, accept the fact that you will never "master" any instrument on which it is possible to be a virtuoso. There's always more to learn.

The question is: during your studies, is your goal to play the best you can on your next recital, or is your goal to be the best performer, and musician, that you can be 3..4...10 years down the line.

If you want an analogy - I offer up different programming languages (only because this is something I know a little bit about). Many high school students now arrive at college with some background in 1 programming language. We try to make sure that they become equally proficient in MANY languages before they leave. The reason is that each one has its own mindset - and (it turns out) you can become a better programmer in the original language by bringing the *other* languages mindset to it. Each one informs the other.

Performers who become adequate performers on many instruments IMPROVE their play on their main axe.

It's important to study Shakespeare in English - but to really understand him you need to read his works in the original Klingon.

[Mark E. Chachich]

It is interesting to me that out of 32 posts in this thread up this point, only one is by a someone listed as a professional tubist (as I remember this is fairly typical for the BB flat vs. CC threads). If you are in school ask your teacher. If you are out of school, what are you doing for most of your income? I honestly do not understand why the opinions of non- professional and semi-professional tubists are being asked for on this matter on a regular basis.

Mark

P.S.
I studied with Connie Weldon who played BB flat and F, so I am not anti BB flat tubas.

[Tuba Guy]

It is interesting to me that out of 32 posts in this thread up this point, only one is by a someone listed as a professional tubist (as I remember this is fairly typical for the BB flat vs. CC threads)

I make all of my money from playing tuba (and bass bone), so I probably could be considered a professional (not at the level of most people on here, though)
That does open a question about who could be called professional...the completely broke person on the street playing tuba? It's probably their main source of income...

[Tubainsauga]

I don't really see how this has ever been a contentious issue. If you sound your best on BBflat, then play BBflat. The OP's question was quite simple, asking whether one might be judged as a player by the key of their tuba as opposed to their ability. There is a certain degree of snobbery in the brass world regarding instruments, but when it comes down to it I don't believe this will ever supercede one's playing.

[Todd S. Malicoate]

It is interesting to me that out of 32 posts in this thread up this point, only one is by a someone listed as a professional tubist (as I remember this is fairly typical for the BB flat vs. CC threads). If you are in school ask your teacher. If you are out of school, what are you doing for most of your income? I honestly do not understand why the opinions of non- professional and semi-professional tubists are being asked for on this matter on a regular basis.

Well, then...if/when I get a job teaching at a university or win a playing gig I'll be sure and come back to voice my opinion. I'm sure that on that very day I will receive total enlightenment on the subject.

A humble suggestion...start your own forum for expert advice only from professionals about all aspects of blowing the too-buh. The uninformed opinions of non-professionals and semi-professionals certainly is a bastion of this particular one.

Todd, auto parts delivery service manager with an MM who will keep his foolish thoughts about Bb vs C tubas to himself.

[TUBAD83]

It is interesting to me that out of 32 posts in this thread up this point, only one is by a someone listed as a professional tubist (as I remember this is fairly typical for the BB flat vs. CC threads). If you are in school ask your teacher. If you are out of school, what are you doing for most of your income? I honestly do not understand why the opinions of non- professional and semi-professional tubists are being asked for on this matter on a regular basis.

Mark

P.S.
I studied with Connie Weldon who played BB flat and F, so I am not anti BB flat tubas.

Wow...I could not think of a better way of insulting an entire group of people. I was under the impression that this forum was about tuba players giving their opinions based on their experience not on how they make their money. Do we all have to submit a resume to participate on here now??

JJ

[TexTuba]

Wow...I could not think of a better way of insulting an entire group of people. I was under the impression that this forum was about tuba players giving their opinions based on their experience not on how they make their money. Do we all have to submit a resume to participate on here now??

JJ

Yes. Now you would have been able to participate in conversations, but that "privilege" has been taken away due to your signature. BBb.....HA!....you amateur.....

[Wyvern]

are people going to overlook me for gigs just because I play a BBb horn instead of a CC?

The people usually fixing for gigs are not tuba players and will not care if you play on CC, or BBb. All that matters is how well you play and how good you sound.

I've never played one but I suspect your Rudy 5/4 BBb would be the equal of any tuba on the planet.

The one Rudy 5/4 BBb I played had a wonderful tone, equal to any CC I have ever played. Remember such tubas are the choice of top professionals in Germany.

"goldenmoose" already has one of the very best big tubas available and would have to get at minimum a Thor to equal in CC, but ideally a handmade 6/4, as the Rudy are all handmade.

This whole BBb v CC thing is really just regional preferences and custom (the same as Eb v F). According to the standard of tuba they are both good. What matters most is the skill of the person behind the mouthpiece.

[oedipoes]

This whole BBb v CC thing is really just regional preferences and custom (the same as Eb v F). According to the standard of tuba they are both good. What matters most is the skill of the person behind the mouthpiece.

Yip, correct.
American people want to sound like Arnold Jacobs, so they prefer CC.
British (not you Jonathan) want to sound like Fletcher, so EEb.
German want to sound like Walter Hilgers, Melton tuba quartet or Paul Halwax, so BBb or F.

I prefer BBb.

Wim

[jonesbrass]

My point on this one is, if your playing is inadequate on BBb, why on earth would you want anyone to learn another keyed tuba? Learning the new one should only come after mastery of the first. To copy your analogy, you shouldn't move on to trigonometry or calculus if you don't really have a solid foundation of algebra.

I disagree with the analogy AND with the conclusion. First, accept the fact that you will never "master" any instrument on which it is possible to be a virtuoso. There's always more to learn.

If you want an analogy - I offer up different programming languages (only because this is something I know a little bit about). Many high school students now arrive at college with some background in 1 programming language. We try to make sure that they become equally proficient in MANY languages before they leave. The reason is that each one has its own mindset - and (it turns out) you can become a better programmer in the original language by bringing the *other* languages mindset to it. Each one informs the other.

Performers who become adequate performers on many instruments IMPROVE their play on their main axe.

Good point. Perhaps I should have said "proficiency" instead of "mastery". Probably would have changed the context of what I wrote considerably. I agree with your analogy, but have my own opinions about when the right time is to add the second, third and fourth. I guess another way of stating my point is that IMHO, if you're not totally proficient on one, the chances of other-pitched tubas "informing" your playing on your "main axe" aren't real great.

[Wyvern]

British (not you Jonathan) want to sound like Fletcher, so EEb.

Wim, I wouldn't say I don't want to sound like Fletch, but a shoulder problem meant I could no longer play the Besson 981 EEb I used to have. Although I'm now exclusively playing rotary tubas, my sound concept is still to a certain extent British, although no doubt internationally influenced by Pokorny, Hilgers, etc.

[Michael Grant]

For as long as I've known Wes Jacobs and as long as I have been in southeast Michigan, I have never seen him play anything other than his Yorkbrunner CC, Rudy CC and Yamaha Eb. He may own a BBb but I have never seen him perform on one and he has never mentioned it.

As for the BBb and CC question, I agree with the many posts that state no one will know or care what key your horn is in as long as you play it well and it sounds good. I had a Kroner BBb years ago (foolishly let it go) that sounded great!

[Donn]

If you want an analogy - I offer up different programming languages (only because this is something I know a little bit about). Many high school students now arrive at college with some background in 1 programming language. We try to make sure that they become equally proficient in MANY languages before they leave. The reason is that each one has its own mindset - and (it turns out) you can become a better programmer in the original language by bringing the *other* languages mindset to it. Each one informs the other.

I entirely agree with that, but the analogy seems absurd to me. Along those lines, it would be a lot more useful to force your tuba player to learn viola, accordion, etc., because at least those different instruments do present different expressive potential. The C tuba differs from the Bb tuba in only the most trivial way, and it's hard to imagine what new insights are going to come from learning to play E with two fingers instead of one.

But speaking of languages, do you ever notice that students vary in their facility with languages, and independently from their facility with algorithms for example? For me, languages are easy and fun, algorithms not so much. Possibly same story with key transposition, i.e., some may have a knack for it, others not?

[The Big Ben]

That does open a question about who could be called professional...the completely broke person on the street playing tuba? It's probably their main source of income...

I'll make a comment on Seatle's late Tuba Man, Ed McMichael. He had two or three horns but, at his memorial, the horn put in a stand to represent him on the stage was a Mira 186 CC.

Playing tuba on the street was his only source of income and he did OK. He had the stuff to play in a symphony/quin-quartet gig but prefered the street.