What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by Wyvern »

goldenmoose wrote:are people going to overlook me for gigs just because I play a BBb horn instead of a CC?
The people usually fixing for gigs are not tuba players and will not care if you play on CC, or BBb. All that matters is how well you play and how good you sound.
termite wrote:I've never played one but I suspect your Rudy 5/4 BBb would be the equal of any tuba on the planet.
The one Rudy 5/4 BBb I played had a wonderful tone, equal to any CC I have ever played. Remember such tubas are the choice of top professionals in Germany.

"goldenmoose" already has one of the very best big tubas available and would have to get at minimum a Thor to equal in CC, but ideally a handmade 6/4, as the Rudy are all handmade.

This whole BBb v CC thing is really just regional preferences and custom (the same as Eb v F). According to the standard of tuba they are both good. What matters most is the skill of the person behind the mouthpiece.
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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by oedipoes »

Neptune wrote: This whole BBb v CC thing is really just regional preferences and custom (the same as Eb v F). According to the standard of tuba they are both good. What matters most is the skill of the person behind the mouthpiece.
Yip, correct.
American people want to sound like Arnold Jacobs, so they prefer CC.
British (not you Jonathan) want to sound like Fletcher, so EEb.
German want to sound like Walter Hilgers, Melton tuba quartet or Paul Halwax, so BBb or F.

I prefer BBb.

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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by jonesbrass »

sloan wrote:
jonesbrass wrote: My point on this one is, if your playing is inadequate on BBb, why on earth would you want anyone to learn another keyed tuba? Learning the new one should only come after mastery of the first. To copy your analogy, you shouldn't move on to trigonometry or calculus if you don't really have a solid foundation of algebra.
I disagree with the analogy AND with the conclusion. First, accept the fact that you will never "master" any instrument on which it is possible to be a virtuoso. There's always more to learn.

If you want an analogy - I offer up different programming languages (only because this is something I know a little bit about). Many high school students now arrive at college with some background in 1 programming language. We try to make sure that they become equally proficient in MANY languages before they leave. The reason is that each one has its own mindset - and (it turns out) you can become a better programmer in the original language by bringing the *other* languages mindset to it. Each one informs the other.

Performers who become adequate performers on many instruments IMPROVE their play on their main axe.

Good point. Perhaps I should have said "proficiency" instead of "mastery". Probably would have changed the context of what I wrote considerably. I agree with your analogy, but have my own opinions about when the right time is to add the second, third and fourth. I guess another way of stating my point is that IMHO, if you're not totally proficient on one, the chances of other-pitched tubas "informing" your playing on your "main axe" aren't real great.
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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by Wyvern »

oedipoes wrote:British (not you Jonathan) want to sound like Fletcher, so EEb.
Wim, I wouldn't say I don't want to sound like Fletch, but a shoulder problem meant I could no longer play the Besson 981 EEb I used to have. Although I'm now exclusively playing rotary tubas, my sound concept is still to a certain extent British, although no doubt internationally influenced by Pokorny, Hilgers, etc.
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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by Michael Grant »

For as long as I've known Wes Jacobs and as long as I have been in southeast Michigan, I have never seen him play anything other than his Yorkbrunner CC, Rudy CC and Yamaha Eb. He may own a BBb but I have never seen him perform on one and he has never mentioned it.

As for the BBb and CC question, I agree with the many posts that state no one will know or care what key your horn is in as long as you play it well and it sounds good. I had a Kroner BBb years ago (foolishly let it go) that sounded great!
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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by Donn »

sloan wrote: If you want an analogy - I offer up different programming languages (only because this is something I know a little bit about). Many high school students now arrive at college with some background in 1 programming language. We try to make sure that they become equally proficient in MANY languages before they leave. The reason is that each one has its own mindset - and (it turns out) you can become a better programmer in the original language by bringing the *other* languages mindset to it. Each one informs the other.
I entirely agree with that, but the analogy seems absurd to me. Along those lines, it would be a lot more useful to force your tuba player to learn viola, accordion, etc., because at least those different instruments do present different expressive potential. The C tuba differs from the Bb tuba in only the most trivial way, and it's hard to imagine what new insights are going to come from learning to play E with two fingers instead of one.

But speaking of languages, do you ever notice that students vary in their facility with languages, and independently from their facility with algorithms for example? For me, languages are easy and fun, algorithms not so much. Possibly same story with key transposition, i.e., some may have a knack for it, others not?
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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by The Big Ben »

Tuba Guy wrote: That does open a question about who could be called professional...the completely broke person on the street playing tuba? It's probably their main source of income...
I'll make a comment on Seatle's late Tuba Man, Ed McMichael. He had two or three horns but, at his memorial, the horn put in a stand to represent him on the stage was a Mira 186 CC.

Playing tuba on the street was his only source of income and he did OK. He had the stuff to play in a symphony/quin-quartet gig but prefered the street.
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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by Alex C »

The real differences between BBb and CC are"

two feet of tubing in the bugle
about another foot of tubing in the valve section
sound

Arnold Jacobs said to play BBb tuba if you liked the sound. Switch to CC because you preferred that sound and for no other reason. To discuss fingerings is to put the argument at such a low level that it is irrelevant.

My personal experience is that most BBb tubas respond poorly in comparison with a similar CC... HOWEVER I have played several 6/4 BBb Holtons, Yorks Cervenys and Alexanders that end that argument. So on the whole, I don't like BBb response but it is not the length of tubing, it is the design of the specific instruments. If I had owned a great BBb and I would have played it for my whole career and not told anyone what key it was. However, I liked the sound of CC better and, yes, I can usually hear a difference.
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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by MartyNeilan »

tubashaman2 wrote:I can hear the difference between BBb and CC most of the time. For example, an undergraduate friend sent me recordings, they just said they were recordings from the last few years, didn't tell me when. I said, this baroque sonata you did on BBb, and the Gregson you did on CC correct, and this piece you did on CC as well right. I was dead on, them not even telling me they were on CC, but had made a switch while I was in school.
Sorry, Jimmy, but I don't buy that for one second.

Maybe he was playing on a 3/4 rotary "German" tuba for the first horn and a 5/4 piston "American" horn for the second horn. Maybe he used a shallow bowl mouthpiece the first time and a deep funnel the other. Maybe your friend just noticeably improved between the first and second recordings (it actually happens at some schools.) There is NO WAY that if you heard a recording of a competent professional playing a Mirafone 186 CC with a C4 mouthpiece and a Mirafone 186 BBb with a C4 mouthpiece that you could make such a flippant comment.
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CC is extravagant imho

Post by tokuno »

cc.jpg
It would fit with the opening night opera gala crowd, but this branding thing is getting out of hand. Status, status, status. :D

I'm [only] a hobbyist, but I bet I share a common experience with a lotta lotta tuba tooters:
I've never had a non-tubaist ask me what key horn I was playing to evaluate my ability or appropriateness to the playing opportunity.

And when I ask, it's in the context of a "under the hood/check-out-the-equipment" conversation, with no inference on my part as to ability or background; I'm impressed with the easy-going, friendly dude with good social skills who subordinates his ego to the greater good, and then plays lights out, irrespective of the thing he's blowing in.
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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by J.c. Sherman »

A few things... ( apost which somehow vanished!)

1) We now live and global community with global influence, and this applies to our exposure to recordings and to conductors exposure to various orchestras. And a significant number of fabulous players, whether in Bands, German Orchestras, Brass Bands, etc. play BBb. And many play CC. And many Eb. Your conductor, at an audition, will have exposure to many sounds and he/she will make a determination based on whether you fit their favorite sound concept and - of course - mastery of the instrument used.

2) Rick is right to some degree on all his points. I'm sorry, but many former students of mine who stuck to BBb or already owned one were ordered to buy a CC. I know some ordered to play a certain BRAND of CC. Professors have biases, and some towards "my way works, so I'll teach my students THAT".

3) Do some people win auditions based on whether they have the latest "Go-Go Gadget" Tuba? I doubt it. I know one situation when - in a room full of Baers and tuba's worth tens of thousands of dollars, the winner played a 621 Yamaha and an old CC that looked like it lost the Battle of the Bulge. It was German... and no one could have told what it would sound like.

4) No offense to the host, but the assignments under our names are based on... well, I don't know. But to be a member of the forum and "dis" a member because they lack the "professional" status is... well... rude.

5) I'm very privileged to play in one of - if not the - finest band in the country; I pinch myself at the blessing I have to be a part of it, and swell with pride that I could ever be a part of their magnificent recordings and broadcasts. What's in the tuba section? BBb, CC, Eb, CC. Two instruments NOT in CC. Again, those being hired are not being judged as to what key of instrument they are playing.

6) The difference, when it all boils out, is $2K or 2 feet, however you look at it. Why $2K? In the US, the best of the BBb tubas (save for possibly custom Fafners and Rudys) stay in Europe, where the demand is. The CCs come here. If you want quality, especially in the mid-price range, the preponderance of CC tubas are going to be a bit better - in my experience - than their BBb brethren.

7) For whatever reason (a whole new topic), we are 99% started out on a BBb tuba. Usually either on inferior or time-worn (or just plain crappy) BBb axes. We all (I'd wager) by the time we bought our own instrument have a bias to get away from the pieces of $#!+ we used to play... and I think that factors into our decision to jump to CC (or in my case, Eb).

8) I've used BBb on a number of occasions. I've recorded on them. I've toured with them. I like many of them, especially some earlier instruments built in America with professional intent, including some exceptional instruments with only 3 valves. I'll always have an American BBb in the arsenal... sometimes it's just the sound I want (though the Conn 52J is pretty ^%#$ close).

My $.48 (I already gave 2 cents :-))

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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by NDSPTuba »

As a former professional Horn player, I never had a clue what keyed instrument the tuba player was playing and didn't care.

Now as a tuba player, my switch to CC was based on 2 reasons.
1. Of all the tubas I played at TMEA the better/easier playing tubas where the CC tubas. This is my only legitimate reason and it is subjective at best.
2. In the "serious" tuba playing community. ie those aspiring to be professional players or current professional players. You will gain instant credibility if you play a "quality" CC as opposed to a BBb without ever playing a note. This of course is a bias and has no real place in quality decision making in what keyed instrument to play. This is common in all instruments. As a horn player if someone showed up to a gig playing a King, Holton, Jupiter or any other horn not considered a "serious" players axe, I would of not had high hopes for the quality of the playing that was to come. And the overwhelming majority of the time, the perception was right on. Part of being taken seriously as a player is "playing the part", appearance ( yours and the instruments ) and behavior. As tuba players we have the benefit of not having section mates in most orchestral settings that could harbor a bias against our axe. In band though it is a different story. I know, in my current group, we had a few young tuba players that where fresh out of college or still in college come to sit in, and though they where nice and friendly you could tell they didn't take me or my BBb section mate seriously as tuba players. I'm sure part of it was our playing ( they where obviously better players ). But I'm sure the opinion was seeded by the BBb axes that we played.

To the OP, a 5/4 Rudy would be considered a serious players axe no matter what the key.

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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by Tuba Guy »

I started on a BBb in high school...in my jr year, I got a Getzen CB50 (CC), and learned how to play it. Now I'm working my BBb playing back up again (with my huge Martin, and soon a huge Cerveny). Personally, I can play any tuba put in front of me (I seem to pick up instruments fairly easily). I've even been practicing in case I ever get a D tuba (just read alto clef).
Honestly, it doesn't matter what key you play. If you make it sound good, no one will care if you play your Gb's 2 or 23. The bigger factor is more what the individual horns sound like. My Getzen has a much smaller, more compact sound than any of my BBb's, but is also a much smaller instrument. As a result, I'll use it in a different place than my others. Doesn't mean that one is better or one is worse. Just that they are different, and should get used for different purposes
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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by Rick Denney »

jonesbrass wrote:My point on this one is, if your playing is inadequate on BBb, why on earth would you want anyone to learn another keyed tuba? Learning the new one should only come after mastery of the first.
On the other hand, switching to a different pitch forces one to go back through the fundamentals. One well-known poster here defends his switch to C solely on the basis that Bb bored him and he needed a change to move on to the next level. There is no conceivable doubt on my part that learning to play the F tuba also improved my Bb playing tremendously, and I doubt I attain the standard of any realistic freshman music performance major.

The paths to learning are not always straight. As a teacher, I know that one of the main tools for pulling someone out of complacency is to take them out of their comfort zone and force them to contend with discomfort.

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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by sloan »

Rick Denney wrote:
jonesbrass wrote:My point on this one is, if your playing is inadequate on BBb, why on earth would you want anyone to learn another keyed tuba? Learning the new one should only come after mastery of the first.
On the other hand, switching to a different pitch forces one to go back through the fundamentals. One well-known poster here defends his switch to C solely on the basis that Bb bored him and he needed a change to move on to the next level. There is no conceivable doubt on my part that learning to play the F tuba also improved my Bb playing tremendously, and I doubt I attain the standard of any realistic freshman music performance major.

The paths to learning are not always straight. As a teacher, I know that one of the main tools for pulling someone out of complacency is to take them out of their comfort zone and force them to contend with discomfort.

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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by Lew »

I have to agree with Ken and Rick that picking up Eb made me a better player on BBb. It forced me to go back to work on some fundamentals. Now I'm not sure which I would call my main horn, but it's probably my Eb.

Having never really played CC I can't really speak about them, but I can say that for me there are certain pieces that are easier to play on BBb than Eb and vice-versa because of the fingerings. This is not because I am used to a certain key or not, but because when there are long complex passages far below the staff I end up having a lot more combinations with fourth valve on the Eb and that makes it a little more awkward, or in certain keys there are more 2-4 to 1-2 switches or other fingering patterns that are a little less comfortable on one horn vs. another. This may be the source of the comments about fingering comfort in different keys more than just the amount of practice with a particular key.
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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by EuphTubaBassBone »

I think that CC is better for orchestral passages.
I honestly don't think it matters because its not the instrument its how well you play it. You can have a shitty looking horn but it all comes down to how good you sound on it, but personally I want to get a CC just because its awesome.
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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by imperialbari »

If CC is better than BBb, wouldn’t Db be even better?

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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by The Jackson »

imperialbari wrote:If CC is better than BBb, wouldn’t Db be even better?

Klaus
As sound an argument as that may be, I don't advocate and won't support the name of any parachuting criminal in my tuba playing.
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Re: What is the real deal between BBb and CC?

Post by Kevin Hendrick »

The Jackson wrote:
imperialbari wrote:If CC is better than BBb, wouldn’t Db be even better?

Klaus
As sound an argument as that may be, I don't advocate and won't support the name of any parachuting criminal in my tuba playing.
... even though a Db might fit in a Mini Cooper? :wink:
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