Mouthpieces equivalent to Conn Helleberg

[goldenmoose]

Hi,

I am looking for a new mouthpiece to replace my old Conn Helleberg from high school. Do you know or could recommend some comparable to it?

I've heard that Laskey and Schilke make a pretty good copy.

Thanks for any help!

[bill]

Here is a list of all the mouthpieces with the same rim diameter as your Conn Helleberg: http://www.dwerden.com/mouthpieces/tuba ... pare=32.50 . Notice some mouthpieces have different bores and different cup depths. The mouthpieces may also have different shanks. You can consult each manufacturer's specification sheets to determine the similarities and differences in various dimensions. Notice that a Conn 7B is not included in the list of similar mouthpieces; it has a different rim diameter. I would try a Josef Klier T4-A or AA but, if you can get to Dillon's shop, you may find an entire range of similar mouthpieces to try. Another similar one would be a Miraphone 25. Its shank will probably be slightly smaller than a Josef Klier (.520 vs. .530). But there are lots of things to try that are similar without being identical.

BTW, where are you? Experimentation is often a matter of Geography. Look around and learn.

[tubadood5150]

I use a Sidey Helleberg coated in titanium. It is possibly the best mouthpiece I've come across. Paul is a great guy to do business with. If you want a helleberg type mouthpiece, those get my vote!

[Doug Elliott]

I notice that my mouthpieces are not listed on Werden's site, so I will mention my Helleberg equivalent:

TU 130 Flat Narrow is a copy of a Conn Helleberg rim, the flat style ones.
TU R cup is almost the same shape as a Helleberg cup, just a little less of a funnel.
I make a variety of shanks for the R cup, depending on what horn it's going to be used on.

[bill]

Doug,

I'd just like to bump your post - if for no other reason that because you offer high-quality products.

Is your "almost the same shape as a Helleberg cup, just a little less of a funnel" mouthpiece sorta "Geib"-ish?

I, too, am a fan of Doug Elliot's mouthpieces. You would find nearly any combination of rims and cups and shanks you can imagine. He is a wonderful source for a custom fit mouthpiece.

[imperialbari]

I use a Sidey Helleberg coated in titanium. It is possibly the best mouthpiece I've come across. Paul is a great guy to do business with. If you want a helleberg type mouthpiece, those get my vote!

I have the brass version of that mouthpiece. I like it, but isn’t it too wide to be considered an equivalent of the Conn Helleberg?

Klaus

[iiipopes]

Are you wanting a functional equivalent, or a size equivalent?

If you're wanting a functional equivalent, almost everybody makes a funnel cup mouthpiece. Narrowing down the list of choices with a similar rim geometry and a throat and backbore to match your breath support situation is the kicker. I'd start with those mentioned above: the Laskey, Elliot, Schilke (67, H, & H-II), and also the Curry H (funnel) & D (modified funnel) models, which you can get in a variety of cup diameters, G&W Taku, Sidey, Finn 3 or 3H (sharper rim), certain PT models, Marc, and even a Wick 1L.

If you're wanting a size equivalent, then the Conn Helleberg 120S, depending on when it was made, can be @ 1.26 to 1.28 diameter, but may feel different depending on how sharp the inner lip is on any particular mouthpiece. Just follow the chart. But focusing only on cup diameter will get you everything from a shallow bowl Miraphone C4 to a Bach 18 to a host of other mouthpieces that may or may not be what you're looking for.

Then there's the approach to seeking advice from those who are in the business, because they do it so well and can point you to good mouthpiece for you: Roger @ WWBW, Matt @ Dillon Music, Dave @ Baltimore Brass or Jeff @ Custom Music Corp. These guys' business is fitting players, and they do it well (not listed in any particular order, just what I typed).

Or, before doing anything else, which may be much less time and cost consuming, just take your old mouthpiece into a good music store and compare it to a new Conn Helleberg 120S, and if you like it, it will be from a half to a third, or even less, than the cost of those mentioned above. Then keep your old mouthpiece as a spare.

[Donn]

If you're wanting a functional equivalent, almost everybody makes a funnel cup mouthpiece.

Almost everybody says they make a funnel cup/helleberg mouthpiece. Note that what you get, has invariably been "improved" to a more bowl shaped cup than you would expect if you're coming from a Conn mouthpiece. I only have a dozen or so mouthpieces, so there might be an exception out there.

[Doug Elliott]

Doug,
I'd just like to bump your post - if for no other reason that because you offer high-quality products.
Is your "almost the same shape as a Helleberg cup, just a little less of a funnel" mouthpiece sorta "Geib"-ish?

Honestly, I don't know. I play trombone, not tuba... it has been a lot of years since I saw a Geib. I did not design any of my mouthpieces by copying what anybody else did. My system consists of evenly graduated cup depths, going along the alphabet as they get deeper; the R happens to be very similar to a regular Conn Helleberg in both depth and shape. I've seen 7B's that are closer to my P cup.

[iiipopes]

If you're wanting a functional equivalent, almost everybody makes a funnel cup mouthpiece.

Almost everybody says they make a funnel cup/helleberg mouthpiece. Note that what you get, has invariably been "improved" to a more bowl shaped cup than you would expect if you're coming from a Conn mouthpiece. I only have a dozen or so mouthpieces, so there might be an exception out there.

Doug,
I'd just like to bump your post - if for no other reason that because you offer high-quality products.
Is your "almost the same shape as a Helleberg cup, just a little less of a funnel" mouthpiece sorta "Geib"-ish?

Honestly, I don't know. I play trombone, not tuba... it has been a lot of years since I saw a Geib. I did not design any of my mouthpieces by copying what anybody else did. My system consists of evenly graduated cup depths, going along the alphabet as they get deeper; the R happens to be very similar to a regular Conn Helleberg in both depth and shape. I've seen 7B's that are closer to my P cup.

The "true" Geib cup is more parabolic shaped, and others have described its response as a "bounce" to the intonation. But this is just what I've gleaned from reading others' experiences.

As far as funnels, The Sidey, the Conn, the Wick, and the Curry H are about as funnelled as it gets. The Curry D is a hybrid. Most others also have somewhat of a curved bottom to help low end precision to the intonation and to help manage breath support by providing a little resistance and "feel" to the player.

[Donn]

As far as funnels, The Sidey, the Conn, the Wick, and the Curry H are about as funnelled as it gets.

What do you mean by "the Wick"? My DW 2 couldn't reasonably be called funnel shaped (though its advertising blurb does just that.) Put something straight along the side of the cup, just 1/4 inch in; it will rest at a slight angle in your Conn or Schilke mouthpiece, but will be nearly straight up in the DW 2.

OK, there exist funnels with partly straight sides, but "funnel shaped" means sloped sides to most people. Either we expect that somewhat rigorously from a funnel shaped mouthpiece, or we accept practically all mouthpieces as funnel shaped, since after all their contours are invariably sloped at some point.

[Doug Elliott]

A pure funnel shape simply doesn't work. Anything that does work is a combination of some sort.

[iiipopes]

I have both a Wick 1 and a Wick 2 sitting in front of me as I type. The Wick 2 is not a funnel. It is based on an old Kosi-Kup design, I believe, and does have some rounding. The Wick 1 is about as pure funnel as it can get and still have just the slightest rounding at the bottom to give a true throat and backbore venturi configuration, and not just be a Dr. Young or be just an oversized french horn mouthpiece.

As posted above, you can't have a completely pure funnel because otherwise you don't have a throat/venturi/backbore.

As far as "American" or "German," yes, Perantucci does use this designation to describe their two lines of mouthpieces. And I own one of each line: a 34 from the "American" series that I actually use on my 186, and an 82 from the "German" series I actually use on large souzys. Also, a Bach 18 is an American mouthpiece with a German name, even though it has a bowl, and a Miraphone "Rose Orchestral" is a German mouthpiece with an American model name, even though it is a funnel. So go figure. What's in a name? I prefer the geometric descriptive terms.