KiltieTuba wrote:So what is your view on the knowledge an incoming freshman should have in order to keep up with the college level playing?
Even if such information were "standardized," I don't understand what value it would be to you. Players will come to your school and band at various abilities, and that is perfectly normal.
My best response to your post is to suggest that you only invest energy in the things you have control over. Be the best tuba player you can be, and don't worry about your colleagues' abilities. The examples you cited make it seem that you only notice the problems other players are having...I'm sure that's not the case and you don't wish to look like another "complainer."
Unless, of course, you are in charge of recruiting players for your school...I assume that you're not.
Todd, hoping this response is viewed as constructive criticism and not a "personal attack."
That makes sense..but as upperclassmen in the section, it is our responsibility to make sure the section is the best it can be. Not just yourself as one person,that's selfish. We have to look at the section as a whole and make sure the SECTION is at it's best. For example: work with struggling players, find out what their weaknesses are. HELP THEM. Call sectionals...etc.. That's what I do, just my opinion though.
I don't know the answer to your problem, but back in the day at my alma mater, you had to audition to be in the marching band and every year well over a hundred people where told they didn't make it ( all instruments combined, not just sousaphone ). I'm assuming you go to a small school that is taking all that want to play and don't live in an area that has a strong high school music program.
I went through this in my pep band this year (not an attack on anyone, just saying before I get started). I was a freshman, and there were 2 other players. We have 3 sousaphones (not counting any personal instruments, which don't get used anyway). 3 players, 3 horns, it worked out. The thing is, tubist #1 was a clarinetist. A really good one, but he was usually inconsistant on the pitches. #2 is a really good bassist. Decent player, but blatted a little. They usually looked to mewhen we needed to do anything that was a solo in our pieces. The important thing is that they still did their absolute best, and we all worked together to make the group as good as possible (and give them as solid a foundation as we could).
2nd semester, our bass playing tuba player had to leave school, but a senior (veteran) came back from a semester abroad. He's a bass clarinetist, but was also taking tuba lessons. He blatted fairly often, but when we pointed it out, he made a legitamate effort to fix.
I know that next year, i will be getting at least one incoming freshman. I don't think I've heard him play, but I've talked to him, and I think he will be a great addition to our section (an actual tuba player!...plus a nice guy, which is always helpful)
I think as long as people want to be there, they can make it work
"We can avoid humanity's mistakes"
"Like the tuba!"
Well incoming freshmen really depend on the pool of those interested. In the tuba playing world theres a lot of "big fish in little pond" going on. I taught a student who was "ok" but not that great. He went to a very small school and thought he was VERY good. When I enlightened him to the fact that he needed to work harder/more often and that in the scope of things he may not get into the schools he wanted, he QUIT!
Sometimes people are just unaware.
Your school is quite a small school so the pool of tuba players will be even smaller and there will likely be less competition. So in this setting you will just plain see students who can't play. You may also get a few who can play really good. However, you won't get a choice in it.
At a larger school though, there may be 25 students who want to play and only 10 spots, so your freshmen are going to be a lot better.
In your case, I would be honest with them and tell them that they need to work hard/often on their music. I would also point them to your teacher if need be so they can get some advice from a pro.
Good luck with it. I know it can definitely be frustrating.
It really has a lot to do with the size of the school and scope of the program. At UCF, when I was lucky enough to be section leader, we had a high of around 20 tuba players. Around half were reliable for really nailing the music. We would have sectionals where I would plow through the tough stuff or the things that we really needed them to help in terms of volume. Sectionals were mandatory, and they were attached to practice. However, I knew that some folks were there for the "hang", so as long as they could passably do the drill, that was good enough, because the section was solid enough.
The incoming players will always vary to a large degree. While at UCF, there were years where no tuba major was recruited, at a school of over 20,000 students (now over 50,000). I'm sure that things are a bit better now, but back then they would push for recruiting about one or two good players every 4 year cycle, enough to meet ensemble needs. Sure, we would get some non-majors/minors to help out, but the ability of those players varied tremendously.
In the Central Florida area, there were a couple of private schools that were excellent schools for certain academic areas. There were times that they had no tuba player of any real ability out of 3000-5000 students on campus.
I was lucky enough to get to play with some great players while in college. One was at UCF, the others were in groups I had to audition into. Playing in seasonal student bands, state intercollegiate bands, and regional intercollegiate bands was a great way to get a solid reality check in terms of ability.
In other words, tuba players can easily fall into the "big fish/little pond" scenario quite easily. Most directors will coddle their tuba players, thinking that they were a rare commodity. My HS band director would threaten to move flute players to sousaphone for marching band (not an idle threat, seen it exercised) if we couldn't get our act together.
Besides sitting down with them to help them out on just the music at hand, you should also have some non-playing sectionals. Hand out some good articles from the TUBA/ITEA journal, listen to some good tuba playing, show them tapes of past performances to let them know what is expected. Explain what the goals are in terms of the band and how you plan to achieve them.
Overall, any section playing is going to be some form of partnership. Like any partnership, find out strengths and weaknesses, utilize the strengths, and remedy the weaknesses. You do the absolute best with what you can, and be proud of it. If everyone is making positive progress and is having a positive experience, then you should be satisfied with the effort.
1. It depends on the nature of and objectives of the band. Anyone who can play a Bb scale on sousaphone, but who can march crisply and accurately with the instrument, would be welcome in the Fightin' Texas Aggie Band. That's no knock on that band--it does not have the objective of making a profound musical statement. It's objective is rather to present a traditional view of the military tradition of Texas A&M, and it does that effectively even with its simple music. Another example: One did not need to be much of a musician to play in the Marching Owl Band from Rice University. One just needed to be an anarchist with a sense of humor. But there are bands that take their musical product seriously, intending to produce superior quality there. Those are the bands that usually have audition requirements. Don't try to project your standards on a band that has different objectives than you do. This will be good practice if you ever play in an all-comers community band, where music is a hobby without professional responsibilities.
2. Lead by example, not by force. It works better. If your example doesn't work, neither will force. The old cliche is: You can't push a rope.
3. Talk to the leadership of the band about it. Define the chain of command and who has what authority. If there are people who are not showing a commitment demanded by that group, and who are not getting the hint, then there will be someone who is responsible for removing them. It does not sound as though that person is you.
4. What is "college-level playing"? If you can't define it, then you can't define the requirements for it.
Story time: Though Texas A&M doesn't have a music program, and despite what I said about the Fightin' Texas Aggie Band above, they did have a symphonic band when I was there. The musical objectives of that group were serious. They enforced those standard by holding auditions. In the first year, I was fourth chair of four. The other three guys had their own Miraphones and all three had been in Texas All-State Band. I didn't own my own instrument, and was using a three-valve Besson borrowed from the band, and the only way I could practice was to go across a (large) campus to use a practice room--I had no way to check out or transport the instrument. The following summer, I could not practice (since I owned no playable tuba) and was unable to get my chops back together in time for the auditions for the second year. When I was in high school, I was usually the best tuba player I had contact with in any given situation. The Houston schools didn't compete at the state level and my experience was limited to a few tuba players from other Houston schools. I always made first divisions at solo contest and was always first chair in the band. I was always able to play the music placed before me. I could not afford lessons, so I had nothing to compare myself against in terms of sound and technique. My point is that I surely thought I met any given standard for an incoming freshman playing in a band at a university with no music program, but sitting next to those other three guys really opened my eyes. Maybe it's time to broaden your perspective a bit.
KiltieTuba wrote:
But this still doesnt answer my question. I ask because I'm trying to let my director know that if he wants the section to continue on in a better fashion, he needs to take a closer look at who he is accepting into the band, not just some person who can blow and buzz at the same time and press some buttons. I just dont want the band to be let down by a failing sousaphone section.
This may not necessarily be your place. What can you expect of a small school with less students to draw from? It may seem simple to not allow students in, but if there are no students that meet the standard then there may be no tuba section.
And your personal philosophy may not be what his philosophy is. Hey may just be trying to keep numbers up or maybe he isn't trying to have a top tier marching program. Maybe his agenda is more about offering the experience and allowing students to play, whatever their level may be.
I personally believe it may not be your place to have this sort of conversation with your director. This doesn't just take your section into the discussion but his policies and philosophy.
I am very familiar with Alma. They have some very strong things at the school, but marching isn't exactly a primary concern. It seems to be that he (as I mentioned before) has other things that dictate how the band runs. I don't mean to belittle the school in any way, these are just my sincere observations.
I just don't think there is the right pool of tuba players at the school to draw from. Maybe these players you see ARE the cream of the crop at the school; maybe there are NO other tuba players who even attend. Just some things to think about. I am not saying I don't understand your plight, but I think there are some things out of everyone's control, including your director.
KiltieTuba wrote:But this still doesnt answer my question. I ask because I'm trying to let my director know that if he wants the section to continue on in a better fashion, he needs to take a closer look at who he is accepting into the band, not just some person who can blow and buzz at the same time and press some buttons. I just dont want the band to be let down by a failing sousaphone section.
You've already let your band director know the situation, and he's already given you his answer. He would rather have people at the quality they are than not have people. You will just have to live with that. You just don't have the authority to change it. You are not "letting the band down"--you are not responsible for that and acting as though you are is assuming more power than you have.
Your college is smaller than many high schools that have to share their musicians with all sorts of other activities. This is not an unusual problem.
By the way, the chain of command you state is not the one that fits your description of how the band actually works. It seems to me that the chain of command is really: The band director, and then everyone else. He may delegate some duties to other folks like veterans, drum majors, and section leaders. But clearly he has not delegated any authority. When people try to assume authority not granted to them, they will always be the ones who are causing the trouble in the eyes of those who have the authority. You are left with your arts of persuasion. Since that's all you have, you might consider how a different approach might be more effective.
If you are in marching band to have a musical experience, you need to re-evaluate your priorities and possibly save your sanity by hastily exiting. Marching band is a social activity. Despite what some high school band directors espouse by neurotically micromanaging their marching bands for asinine, cultish contests, the only people who care about marching band are the people in it and, generally, their parents. This is especially true at the level of a small, private college that does not participate in nationally televised D-I football.
The people in the group are not there to make music. Again, marching band is a social activity. The parents of the group members are unflinchingly supportive and would probably give a standing ovation if your entire section pooped in their sousaphones.
As for practicing your marching band music? That's a good one. It sounds like your band plays one show for the entire season. If that's true, it seems to me that there's plenty of scheduled group time for the non-zealots to learn by rote. At my school, the marching band (250 persons, <10% music majors) learns a new show every week. Practice all that music? No one majors in roll-stepping.
My unsolicited advice? Take your thousand dollars and quit whining. If the director is unfazed by your section's alleged lack of ability, I'd guess you are the only individual inside our outside the band that gives a frak. Learn to have fun or bid adieu and join a musical ensemble to get that musical satisfaction the marching band can't provide.
I've experienced this time and time again throughout marching band. I've been squad/section leader at my college for awhile now, and I know how hard it is to tell tuba players to do their job and to practice, etc. It's hard enough getting some of the players to even memorize the show music because I know that some of them are there to just get the extra money and to get an easy grade.
However, I do not agree with marching band being a "social activity." Granted, it is implied in that context. Marching Band is still a form of making music, and it should be taken in that perspective. At the very least, tuba players who march in a marching band should at least try and act like they care about it. We currently have 14 players on the tuba line, 10 of them being music majors, and I know for a fact that at least two of those 10 players hardly practice or even touch their horn. Most of our line tries, but trying is not enough, period. If you want to be in marching band, you have to be committed to working hard, playing your part, and supporting the rest of the band with a good sound. If you can't do any of those, you don't deserve a spot on the line, in my opinion.
Here ends my rant.
Last edited by TubaNerd88 on Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
TubaNerd88 wrote:However, I do not agree with marching band being a "social activity." Granted, it is implied in that context.
Were it not for the decent skohlerschip dough and the trips to New Orleans (Superdome/Tulane), our marchin' band would have been no larger than half the size and no better than half as good.
Honestly, that's pretty sad. It doesn't help that the level of music education is already dropping.
The most important tool a college Freshman Tuba/Sousaphone player can bring with him is the ability to stay out of the way of the officious, obnoxious Sophomore section leader who thinks he's Bill Bell's gift to musical excellence.
sloan wrote:The most important tool a college Freshman Tuba/Sousaphone player can bring with him is the ability to stay out of the way of the officious, obnoxious Sophomore section leader who thinks he's Bill Bell's gift to musical excellence.
And vice versa.
The cut bites deep.
In the Texas A&M Corps of Cadets, freshmen are called Fish. Juniors are Sergebutts, and seniors are Zips.
Sophomores are Pissheads.
Rick "who lived on the other end of campus" Denney
sloan wrote:The most important tool a college Freshman Tuba/Sousaphone player can bring with him is the ability to stay out of the way of the officious, obnoxious Sophomore section leader who thinks he's Bill Bell's gift to musical excellence.
And vice versa.
I agree with you on this, but I am, however, not this so-called "Bill Bell's gift to musical excellence" that you speak of. I love music, period. It's my passion, and it's my life. I don't expect every other tuba player to have the same goals/dreams in life as I do, nor do I try to force that on them.
During my junior year of college, we had someone from a high school come up as a freshman. Within a week of marching band rehearsals, he dropped out. This is a perfect example of what I expressed in my previous post. I know that marching band is supposed to be mainly for fun and games, but when it comes down to it, it's not. You have to sacrifice fun for hard work, or vice versa. It's like a balance system.
TubaNerd88 wrote:However, I do not agree with marching band being a "social activity." Granted, it is implied in that context.
Were it not for the decent skohlerschip dough and the trips to New Orleans (Superdome/Tulane), our marchin' band would have been no larger than half the size and no better than half as good.
Honestly, that's pretty sad. It doesn't help that the level of music education is already dropping.
Uhhhhh, what does marching band have to do with music?
Ryan Rhodes
Springfield, MO
Big Mouth Brass J-445LQ F
JinBao 600S F
1919 Holton Eb
1964 Olds O-97 BBb sousaphone
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix
Tubaguyry wrote:Uhhhhh, what does marching band have to do with music?
It's pretty simple. Any person or group that plays an instrument is considered music. Marching Band has everything to do with music. I'm not denying people's opinions. I respect anyone's opinion that is given, but to say Marching Band is not music is like saying TV has nothing to do with entertainment.
I had a similiar situation at the first college I attended a couple of years ago, the main problem with people that didn't give a rat's a## was that you can't do anything about because the band director makes all of those calls, and no one else! Sure the private lesson teachers could convince people to not be music majors because they didn't have it, but the band director is focused on numbers. At my college, the band director got DIRECT orders from the President of the University......which he was not a music guy at all, an engineer, which the entire engineering department is one of the best anywhere.Yeah, thats cool if your an engineering major, but not if your a music major.........So on with the story- the band director wanted new sousaphones, got 12 from the ok of the President, and he wanted to see them out on the field, so we only had 9 players, guess what the band director had to do, pay people to hold the tubas!! Tubaholders!!!!!!! Us real tuba players didn't have a word in it, because in the end, the band director may care about it, but can't do anything because of outside pressure.......Same way with the quantity over quality, band director might have to meet a quota in a certain number of time, so they will sacrifice musicianship over how big you look.....Sometimes you gotta suck it up and enjoy the other ensembles that are offered, hell, I had to form some just to have playing opportunities, brass choir, brass quintet, and tuba-euph quartet, you can always find a few that really like to play and care, get with them and have a good time.......Plus, college marching band is really about just having FUN.....even us serious tooba players gotta have some fun and blatt with the ones that dont't give a sh#@!! If that's not for you, then ya gotta look at whats important and maybe cut out of marching band and stick with "real" music in wind ensemble........Unfortunately, your voice sometimes don't mean squat when it comes to the band director. It's a sad reality.......
Keith
Keith Sanders
Northwestern State University- MM in Music Performance- Spring 2017
Thomas Edison State College- BA in Music- 2010
That's a good one. It sounds like your band plays one show for the entire season. If that's true, it seems to me that there's plenty of scheduled group time for the non-zealots to learn by rote. At my school, the marching band (250 persons, <10% music majors) learns a new show every week. Practice all that music? No one majors in roll-stepping.
