Conn 20J Front Valve Conversion??

[Lew]

FWIW, I didn't see this posted yet, here is a link to a photo of a Conn 22J that I used to own. I may have more photos that I could send you if you are interested.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/Conn22J1934image.html" target="_blank" target="_blank

22J was the model number for this 3 valve front/short action 2XJ as listed in the 1934 Conn catalog that was in with this horn when I bought it. I sold this years ago and don't know where it is now, but it is the only one of these models that I have ever seen in person. I have been looking for an original 4 valve version of one of these, but have never actually seen one, although I have heard of the existence of at least 2. There are times that I wish I still had this, but frankly my rotary valve King recording tuba plays better than this does.

[Steven Noel]

Hi , The bell front 4v in the photo looks like my 26-J 24" bell front & 24" bell up , i also own the 36-J which has the 4v but the reg. long action and 26" bell front i some times use the upright bell on that horn too for certain concerts , i have a 21-J , 25J as well , all of them play wonderful i wish you well in your project i hope you can create a tube your happy with and plays well for you !!
Best of luck , Steven .

[Rick Denney]

I had a 20J that I'd paid not much for and pondered this myself. Then, a couple of things occurred to me:

1. I had not played enough big tubas to know which ones really produced "that sound". Turns out, the 20J was not the one that did.

2. The 20J I owned required 1-3 to play the low F in tune, because the third partial was so flat.

3. The 20J could not play below about mezzo-forte.

I think a got a lot more value out of it by selling it and using the money to buy a 6/4 Bb tuba that really works and that already has the front-action valves. The guy who wanted my 20J is presumably enjoying it for what it is.

A tuba is a leadpipe, valve set, a tuning slide, a dogleg, sets of bows, and a bell stack. The donor tuba already has all those parts except the leadpipe, valveset, and dogleg. Turning it arround requires arranging the bows on the other side of the bell from their current orientation, plus coming up with valves. The problem with the top-action valves is that the ports, which are hard-soldered to the casings, point in the wrong directions for the valve branches. Making all those ports that come out of the casings and then point up and down point straight is going to require fabricating and silver-soldering new ports onto the casings. That's like instrument-maker grad school.

There's an old saying among folks who grind their own amateur astronomy telescope mirrors: If you want to grind a 12-inch mirror, grind a 6-inch mirror first. What you learn on the smaller mirror will save you more when you grind the bigger mirror than what it took to grind it.

So, if you must risk ruining this instrument, start with a 20K valveset. I think in the end you'll find that the smaller bore imposes no noticeable harm to the way the tuba plays, and it might even be better.

Klaus's advice is right on. You must be the only person I know who thinks a 20J is worthy of this sort of surgery. My recommendation remains: Enjoy it for what it is and don't ruin it trying to make it something it's not. If you think this is going to be a cheap project, think again. By the time you get it done and back in satin silver, you'll have spent far more than even the prettiest 20J is worth on the market, and you'll have spent a good portion (at least) of what potentially better alternatives might cost.

Rick "wondering if you have tried the alternatives carefully enough to be able to reject them" Denney

[imperialbari]

3. The 20J could not play below about mezzo-forte.

Yeah it could...but with all of that triathlete swimming (earaches, etc.) combined with the recording bell, you just couldn't HEAR it until you were honkin' into it at least that loud.

Just tell him how you rigged your mic and how you plugged it to your hearing aids.

But then there is something to bell placement. I enjoyed the York Master sound coming back from the walls, but there wasn’t much percussive effect heard from the attack. When I experimented with the Eb sousaphones, they sometimes were on my lap with the bell pointing towards my right ear. The low dynamics stood out very clearly and there was no temptation to try the loud playing.

For the fun of it I also tried the 26K without bell many years ago. The sound was very efficient, but too much like a desert storm to be sensed as beautiful.

Klaus

[TUbajohn20J]

Thanks everybody. Also Steven, if you could I would love to see some pics of that 26J. And I think I've decided to leave THIS 20J alone and play it like it is, because it plays wonderful now and don't want to risk anything. Rick, I don't have any of those problems with my 20J that you seem to have had. The pitch is pretty much dead on, even the low F that you use 1 &3 on. This horn truly does sound like the voice of God, especially in the low register. Every horn is slightly different though. But I do plan on getting another 20J, probably a slightly beat up brass one for cheap...and adding the 20K/22K valve set to it since it would be "easier" as most people are telling me the factory valve set won't work, then adding a 4th valve...and if I like the way it turns out, yes I'm going to get all the dents taken out, have it satin silver plated with bright silver trimmings. That truly is my dream horn and if I could find a factory horn like that I would marry it!! I am still very interested in this project and think it is well worth doing. Thanks for the input everybody

[Dan Schultz]

...... I think I've decided to leave THIS 20J alone and play it like it is....... But I do plan on getting another 20J, probably a slightly beat up brass one for cheap...and adding the 20K/22K valve set to it .......

Here's one with the wrong bell you might pick up for cheap....
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Weymann-Tub ... 1|294%3A50

[TUbajohn20J]

Thanks, yes that's exactly what I'm looking for. I'll keep my eye on that one. Also, I hate to ruin a good 22K sousa just for the valve section, as these are somewhat rare (well, more rare than the 36K atleast). Does anybody have an old beat up 20K they would sell? or know somebody? thanks-John

[tubatom91]

I can get you the fiberglass part . (I have the parts you want). I'll keep my eye out for you. BTW when we both get ours done I'd love to get together and honk 'em back to back (maybe a tuba christmas somewhere).

[TUBAD83]

I think I've decided to leave THIS 20J alone and play it like it is, because it plays wonderful now and don't want to risk anything. Rick, I don't have any of those problems with my 20J that you seem to have had. The pitch is pretty much dead on, even the low F that you use 1 &3 on. This horn truly does sound like the voice of God, especially in the low register.

My 20J does not have those problems either (used it in a concert last weekend). Great sound, no intonation problems, and can play it extremely soft with no problem at all. Truly a joy to play. Very glad to see a great horn is going to remain as Mr. Conn had intended

[TUbajohn20J]

Yeah Jerry, in my opinion, there is no tuba that could compare to the sound of a 20J. I realized mine is too beautiful and I love it too much to mess with it. That's what the old, beat up, came from a middle school band 20J's are for right! I am eventually going to make that "26J" from one of those. But I'm going to keep this tuba as long as I live just as it is.

[Dan Schultz]

....... Does anybody have an old beat up 20K they would sell? or know somebody? thanks-John

Not old and beat-up. But Conn/Selmer still manufactures the 20K/22K valve sections at the Eastlake, Ohio factory. I've never tried it, but they might be willing to part with a valve section (or parts thereof) at a reasonable price. Even if the cluster is damaged... the #2 is the one you need to graft to the others to make a four-valve cluster. In fact, I'll bet they are still making a four-valve cluster.

[TUbajohn20J]

....... Does anybody have an old beat up 20K they would sell? or know somebody? thanks-John

the #2 is the one you need to graft to the others to make a four-valve cluster. In fact, I'll bet they are still making a four-valve cluster.

Really? Why would they still be making the 4 valve cluster if it isn't in production?? I need to get one of these!!

[Dan Schultz]

....... Does anybody have an old beat up 20K they would sell? or know somebody? thanks-John

the #2 is the one you need to graft to the others to make a four-valve cluster. In fact, I'll bet they are still making a four-valve cluster.

Really? Why would they still be making the 4 valve cluster if it isn't in production?? I need to get one of these!!

You mis-read my post. Although Conn/Selmer doesn't catalog a 4V version of the 20K.... the DO still build the 3V sousa. My guess is that they would build a 4V version if Uncle Sam called and said they wanted a couple dozen. Want me to check on it for you? It's only money!

[pwhitaker]

Yeah Jerry, in my opinion, there is no tuba that could compare to the sound of a 20J. ....

I have a recording bell 20J and a Rudy Meinl 5/4 BBb. IMHO the Rudy has a more compelling presence. Both horns have a very ponderous timbre which is exactly what I want in a tuba sound. The 20J isn't quite as focused as is the Rudy, which is not surprising since the Rudy produces the canonical German tuba sound. My trad jazz compadres like both of them equally well - I bought the Conn for the recording bell 'cause I'm lazy. An automotive comparison would be the classic Mercedes 600 sedan vs the vintage 1950's Cadillac De Ville - both exemplars of their respective domains.

[TUbajohn20J]

Want me to check on it for you? It's only money!

Yes!!! I need to get me a couple 4 valve 20K's while I'm at it

[tubatom91]

newest action with my horn

[edsel585960]

I know this is a an ancient post but would like to know if you actually finished it. Would love to see it!

[tubatom91]

This is the one I "finished" a few years ago. It's in need of a few hours of soldering as it needs more bracing in vital points (Lead-pipe and valve-section) but it plays.

[Tabor]

I think it would be interesting & perhaps a easier to slap a Mirafone 186 valve set in there. Roughly the same bore & the short throw of the rotor valves are similar to the short action pistons.

[Art Hovey]

Here's my recent 20J conversion project:

Conv20J-Front.jpg

Detail are here:

http://galvanizedjazz.com/tuba/20J/20Jconversion.html

“Gross National Product” measures neither our wit nor our courage, neither our wisdom nor our learning, neither our compassion nor our devotion… It measures everything except that which makes life worthwhile. Robert Kennedy, 1968