"big four"

[iiipopes]

http://jazz.learnhub.com/lesson/10127-w ... -four-beat" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank which quotes the following:

"Famous jazz musician Wynton Marsalis explains the “Big Four” beat, a beat which creates the capacity for jazz."

Click in the middle of the screen for a short video.

An oversimplified way of saying it is that anytime a guy counts off a chart in this manner:

one...two...AH one two three four...

He's using the "big four" concept to kick off the band and set the style as well as the tempo.

[David Richoux]

As I've come to have some experience playing with New Orleans style brass bands, the "big four" concept is mentioned in passing from time-to-time by both players and aficionados.

As I listen to a typical "big four" beat, I do hear quit a bit of emphasis of "small" beat #4 (as sometimes some of the hardest accents occur on "small" beat #4), but as I listen to it more-and-more I believe the genesis of the descriptive title possibly (??) came from another root, as virtually all "big four"-style bass drummers seem to have ONE thing in common:

If you count the BIG four

1 . . . 2 . . . 3 . . . 4 . . . 1. . . (etc.)

The "BIG" 1 is the ONLY place that they seem to feel obliged to NEARLY ALWAYS place a downbeat... ...thus "big four".

Is my observation (in regards to the name of this style of bass drumming) correct, or is there another (more correct) origin of the term "big four"? OK...Speculation (per most tubenet threads) might prove to be interesting reading, but some more authoritative jazz scholarship would be more appreciated (here) by me.

- bloke "who likes to learn stuff"

I hear it as stressing a pick-up to the 1st beat by syncopating around the 4th beat in a 2 measure pattern - that is called a "Bo Diddley" rhythm that really goes all the way back to the drumming at Congo Square.
http://www.drumsdatabase.com/bodiddley.htm http://www.rockhall.com/inductee/bo-diddley http://w3.rz-berlin.mpg.de/cmp/gottschalk.html

When I play in California "New Orleans Brass Bands" it often hard to find bass drummers who get the concept, unless they have also played in roots rock bands (or are New Orleans transplants.)

[tbn.al]

Sounds like you might have had a fun week, not at all hampered by a little bit of jingle in your pocket.

[imperialbari]

A slightly offset question on bands like the NO Ramblers like presented through the page you link to.

I understand the flexible format depending on circumstances and money. I would guess that a staged concert takes one drummer only on a trap set. How many drummers for the full band parades? I assume side and bass drum, but what about cymbals? If a parade entry ends in a staged performance, what about the surplus drummer(-s)?

Klaus

[The Big Ben]

How is the 'big four' different from what James Brown called "playing on the one"?

Funk "on the one" has a big fat one and 2, 3, 4 are restrained and then the big fat one again. The rhythm players can be creative outside of the "one" but the "one" better be there big and fat or JB is gonna levy a $50 fine.

[David Richoux]

A slightly offset question on bands like the NO Ramblers like presented through the page you link to.

I understand the flexible format depending on circumstances and money. I would guess that a staged concert takes one drummer only on a trap set. How many drummers for the full band parades? I assume side and bass drum, but what about cymbals? If a parade entry ends in a staged performance, what about the surplus drummer(-s)?

Klaus

Most New Orleans Brass Bands (AFAIK) keep the two drummers for both parade and stage performances - it is a long-running tradition. Normally there are a minimum of two trumpets/cornets, two bones, two reeds, Sousaphone, snare and bass drummer - with a LOT of flexibility in numbers of musicians (higher and lower) and instrumentation depending on the pay and importance of the gig. I have seen established bands like the Dirty Dozen use a trap set on occasion, and some of the younger bands do as well, sometimes.

In the last decade or so there has been incorporation of keyboardists, DJ turn-table mixers and dedicated vocalists for stage shows in some bands.

In a somewhat similar musical form - have you seen the percussion section for Balkan Brass bands? Bass drum (played with a beater and a whip-stick,) snare and/or roto-toms and hand drums are usually in the line-up.

[David Richoux]

...getting back off the shoulder of the road:

"big four" - origin of the term / technical description of the (bass drum) beat...

Who is it that is calling that beat "Big Four?"

I find no references to that term in "Brass Bands and New Orleans Jazz" by William J. Schafer (and Richard B Allan,) 1977, nor "A Joyful Noise - A Celebration of New Orleans Music" by Michael P. Smith, 1990 (unfortunately without an index - but I did skim through it just now.)
The only place I find it mentioned on teh Internets (other than Heavy Metal drumming and the clip mentioned earlier) is in this discussion by Wynton Marsalis:
http://www.weboschools.org/webo/staff/h ... esson1.pdf and that is only in reference to the "Roll Off" to some songs, not the full pattern of the bass drum line in a song (as I read it.)
(snare: drrum-ti-dum, drrum-ti-dum, etc. bass: Bum Bum Bum Bum! Start!) So even St. Wynton of Marsalis seems to be giving different definitions to the term!

Is this a local term that has evolved in current Brass Band slang to mean something more than that?

[iiipopes]

How is the 'big four' different from what James Brown called "playing on the one"?

Who is it that is calling that beat "Big Four?"

Did either of you even bother to click the link I posted to see and hear what Wynton described as the how the drummer devised the turnaround on 4 to get into the beat on 1 to help develop jazz as we know it?

[David Richoux]

How is the 'big four' different from what James Brown called "playing on the one"?

Who is it that is calling that beat "Big Four?"

Did either of you even bother to click the link I posted to see and hear what Wynton described as the how the drummer devised the turnaround on 4 to get into the beat on 1 to help develop jazz as we know it?

Yes I did, and I just mentioned your link in my last posting - Wynton seems to be referring to two completely different things on different sites.

We are all going round and round on a term that may be localized slang for the basic "Four and One" jazz beat thing (or is it just the "roll-off") - I have played in several New Orleans Brass Bands (not in New Orleans,) listened to many others, interviewed many musicians (including members of Dirty Dozen,) played many recordings of these kinds of bands on my radio show and read quite a few books on the subject over the last 25 years or so - the term "Big Four" is not exactly familiar to me.

Just sayin'

[David Richoux]

Got this link from a friend on DJML:

Here is what Wynton Marsalis quoting Danny Barker said about "big four" when interviewed by Dr. Billy Taylor on one of Taylor's NPR programs . . . Billy Taylor's Jazz.

Dr. Taylor inquires about the importance of the famous New Orleans bass drum beat as the foundation of the local style. Marsalis shares a lesson from Barker, who explained, "Now, this bass drum is the key to our whole music". He emphasized the "conversation" between the drumbeat and responding cymbal crash on the first three beats. On the fourth beat (known as the "big four"), the two are hit together. According to Barker, "when they 'talk' together, that's the most important point".

For the rest of the article, see:
http://www.npr.org/programs/btaylor/arc ... lis_w.html

So Danny Barker can be added to the list of people who call it "Big 4." and there is a different clip of Wynton talking about it here: http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/bt.wmarsalis4.ram