Question for Rudolf Meinl 5/4 players

kathott · Post by **kathott** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:49 pm

Greetings,
Some questions for players of the Rudolf Meinl 5/4 CC tuba:

1) CASES: Any sources for cases to fit this tuba?
I prefer an actual case as opposed to a trunk, for ease of car/airline transporting.

2) LOW REGISTER: My 5/4 plays very well, quite even over the register and good pitch.
The low G, Gb and F do not quite centre as well as the rest of the bottom end, but can be played fine with a little extra care.........

3) RECEIVER: my receiver does not accept many makes of mpces. They all tend to "rock" slightly, as opposed to a snug fit. So far, the best fits are the Schilke Helleberg II and the older RM #1.

4) POSTURE: I use a stand with this horn. Even then, it is not as comfortable to hold as some other large tubas. Having said this, I am willing to trade a small amount of restriction in my seating, as a trade for the great sound.

Thanks for your input,
Kathott

pwhitaker · Post by **pwhitaker** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:42 pm

I have the older 5/4 "Kleine Kaiser" 4 valve BBb model:

1) Have been unable so far to find a case for it - you might have to go directly to the Rudolf Meinl factory.
This horn does not leave my house anymore - I recently bought an older Conn 20J which has a similar but more "American" version of the large BAT sound these horns produce. The Conn now goes to gigs - it is very sturdy and has a recording bell which suits the Traditional jazz I am usually playing.

2) My horn does the same on the low F, Gb and G. In fact I can play a low G with 1-3 or 4 and then lip it down to the F. I think it's an idiosyncrasy of these horns. Other than that everything is as yours, even the low C (1234) is on pitch with 1,3 and 4 pulled moderately. The false tone low B is very robust and in tune using just the 3rd valve.

3) European shanks seem to work best on mine.

4) I use a stand. Since I'm 6'3'' or 190.5 cm tall the horn suits me ergonomically. I will second your opinion that these horns make a great sound.

guillaumedu · Post by **guillaumedu** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:41 pm

i have a CC 5/4 rudy

1 contact Mts They do hard case but you will have a really bid case for a rudy

2- i play CC a don'T know

3- i have a Dillon Receiver on my tuba i can change for euro or standar shank

4- i use a stand

tubafatness · Post by **tubafatness** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:54 pm

I don't have a 5/4 Rudy, but I do a good example of the 4/4 horn, which is close enough in many regards.

1) Don't know here. I'd go to one of the case makers that ships their case to you so you can make measurements before they mold the final case, (I believe the Walt Johnson case makers do this.)

2) For these notes, it's all a matter of learning the idiosyncrasies of the horn. If I'm not dead on the pitch for the F and Gb, then they falter, so it takes a lot of concentration to make these notes speak all the time. Practice makes [almost] perfect, so just keep at it.

3) It seems like Rudy CCs in general have a fairly large diameter leadpipe, so this could be causing the wiggle. The same happens with my Rudy, which takes a Laskey 30H. I don't know which shank the mouthpiece I use is: unlike a good chunk of tuba players these days, I don't really pay attention to whether my mouthpieces are Euro or American shank.

4) I use a stand with my tuba when I have to use chairs that don't have enough space for me and the horn comfortably. It's just something you have to get used to, (sorry to repeat the same thing again.) My suggestion is to adjust the height so that you are not stooping to play the horn: stooping can cause a chain reaction of aches and pains, so to speak.

Hope I was able to help you!

Aaron

Tuba-G Bass · Post by **Tuba-G Bass** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:20 pm

I also have a 10 to 15 year old Rudolf Meinl 5/4 BBb Tuba 4rv,
19 and 5/8" Bell, about 42" tall
I have a MTS 1209 case, I had to remove the accessory box, two screws near where the handle is,
and rip it out, because it's glued in too.
It's a snug fit, I still put it in bell first, then push in the bottom bow. The padding will learn the shape of the horn,
it was pretty snug around the bell, a 20" bell might just max out the case.
Contact Lee Stofer, he is very knowledgeable about Rudy Meinl's.
He has some case solutions for the Rudy.

I use a Giddings and Webster Alan Baer CC stainless steel Euro shank mouthpiece, yes, it "rocks" in the leadpipe,
maybe locating a Rudolf Meinl mouthpiece would be best.
Someone on here advised against getting a adjustable receiver, because as it comes from the maker, it is a leadpipe all the
way to the end, and reinforced where the mouthpiece goes in, altering it would be bad.

I use a Baltimore Brass playing rest for sitting, and a Neotech XL tube harness for standing,
with the optional cradle strap on the bottom bow, and the top little strap threaded
through and under the leadpipe and hooked over the first valve slide.
The ergomatics for me are fine, I am 5" 11" and well, I haven't "missed" any meals

This horn was the best investment I ever made, I love the sound and response you can achieve.
I am currently at the week long 2009 Moravian Music Festival, in Belmont, NC, playing it twice a day,
the concert band concert is on thursday July23rd, it going to be a blast!

MWoj · Post by **MWoj** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:34 pm

I own an older 5/4 BBb and I'm having a very difficult time finding a case large enough for it. Fyi, the largest cases from both MTS and SKB don't work for me. According to Rudolf Meinl, Jr., the Jakob Winter case is their 'factory' case and I'm in the process of buying one of those right now.

-Wojo.
Birmingham, AL

JCalkin · Post by **JCalkin** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:43 pm

kathott wrote:Greetings,
Some questions for players of the Rudolf Meinl 5/4 CC tuba:

1) CASES: Any sources for cases to fit this tuba?
I prefer an actual case as opposed to a trunk, for ease of car/airline transporting.

Your best bet would be Walt Johnson, since they custom fit the interiors of all their cases. You also mention airline transport, and I would trust a Johnson over an MTS greatly in this regard.

kathott wrote: 2) LOW REGISTER: My 5/4 plays very well, quite even over the register and good pitch.
The low G, Gb and F do not quite centre as well as the rest of the bottom end, but can be played fine with a little extra care. I have had this happen (the same notes) on some other large tubas, and I don't think its me....................

I've noticed the same thing with my Rudy. I'm learning the low range on the horn now since my Rudy is new (to me). I have to remember to keep an extra solid embouchure (these notes are unforgiving of weakness/uncenteredness of the chops) and not push too hard on the air. It's somewhat analogous to the F tuba "low C problem".

kathott wrote: 3) RECEIVER: My receiver does not accept many makes of mpces. They all tend to "rock" slightly, as opposed to a snug fit. So far, the best fits are the Schikle Helleberg II and the older RM #1.

Same experience here. I have a Rudy 'piece that wiggles in the receiver.

The best fit in terms of shank was the Schilke Helleberg II and a Giddings & Webster Williwaw, old-style. I use a PT-90 now since it's the best fit for me and the horn (sound-wise) but I have to finnagle (sp?) the PT in with a slight twist.

kathott wrote: 4) POSTURE: I must use a stand with this horn. Even then, it is not as comfortable to hold as some other large tubas. Having said this, I am willing to trade a small amount of restriction in my seating, as a trade for the great sound.

Same here. Totally worth it.

jeopardymaster · Post by **jeopardymaster** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:41 am

Earlier in the summer I visited a fellow who plays a 5/4 Rudy. I had my Neptune with me. Sitting the 2 side by side I was struck with how close they were to one another dimensionally. The wraps are quite different, but bell diameter, flare, height, width and depth are very nearly identical. The fifth valve pipe on the Neptune sticks up more, so I don't know a Neptune would necessarily fit safely in a Rudy case, but I'd be willing to bet a Rudy will fit in a Neptune case.

JHardisk · Post by **JHardisk** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:38 am

When I had my Rudy 5/4, I had Tubadome make me a UniTech case. Mine was the first "lightweight" model case. It's extremely sturdy, very easy to drag around, and is only 30ish pounds empty. With the horn, I was able to make most flight weight requirements. Size, however is a different story!

They made this case for me, last minute with a 3 day turnaround time!

http://www.tubadome.com/Index_files/page0039.htm" target="_blank

I will have them make me one for my 6450 when I dig up the dough!

PolkaNoble · Post by **PolkaNoble** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:32 pm

1) CASES: Any sources for cases to fit this tuba?

3 or 4 years ago, when Brook-Mays was in bankruptcy, I walked into the LBJ store on the last day of liquidation and got an ALLIED case that seemed to be made for my Rudy. Fit was perfect. The new Brook-Mays seems to still be doing business with Allied so maybe they can trace it down for you.

Not to make you feel bad, but I got that case for $49.00. They had two more at that price then and I considered getting them, but did not do so.

2) LOW REGISTER: My 5/4 plays very well, quite even over the register and good pitch.
The low G, Gb and F do not quite centre as well as the rest of the bottom end, but can be played fine with a little extra care. I have had this happen (the same notes) on some other large tubas, and I don't think its me....................

I have noticed no such problem. Mine is also a CC 5 valve but in red brass. I love the low register on this horn!

3) RECEIVER: My receiver does not accept many makes of mpces. They all tend to "rock" slightly, as opposed to a snug fit. So far, the best fits are the Schikle Helleberg II and the older RM #1.

Again I have not noticed the problem. I use The Rudolf Meinl RM10.(dot) and I really have seen no need to try other mouthpieces. My Bach Mouthpieces do not rock, neither does my LOUD LM10 (I do not use them in the Rudy, anyway.) The Rudolf Meinl RM10. ROCKS!, but It does not "rock" in the receiver. (edited for correct mouthpiece numbers)

4) POSTURE: I must use a stand with this horn. Even then, it is not as comfortable to hold as some other large tubas. Having said this, I am willing to trade a small amount of restriction in my seating, as a trade for the great sound.

I was already using a stand when I got "Red Rudy". With my other horns it is optional, with the Rudy it is required. No problems with that.

DonnieMac · Post by **DonnieMac** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:14 pm

The receiver on the CC Rudi has a "French taper" internally as measured by Bob Reeves of http://www.bobreeves.com" target="_blank" target="_blank. This configuration begins as a cylinder and enlarges into a truncated cone. Thus the MP to fit in a snug manner must conform to the internal taper which is not like the Euro taper or size. I've had 3 MP's machined to fit my Rudi, a Tony Clements, a Doug Elliott shank and a Larry Minick. I think a snug fit between the MP shank and the receiver is essential in transmitting the max vibrations generated in the MP.
DonnieMac

Alex C · Post by **Alex C** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:48 pm

Tuba-G Bass wrote:
I use a Giddings and Webster Alan Baer CC stainless steel Euro shank mouthpiece, yes, it "rocks" in the leadpipe,
maybe locating a Rudolf Meinl mouthpiece would be best.
Someone on here advised against getting a adjustable receiver, because as it comes from the maker, it is a leadpipe all the way to the end, and reinforced where the mouthpiece goes in, altering it would be bad.

I still have pangs of regret at not buying the Rudy 5/4 at MidWest years and years ago.

I have to come down on the opposite side of 'it "rocks" in the leadpipe.' If the mouthpiece is unstable in the receiver one reason may be because the receiver is out of round. A different mouthpiece (with a round shank) will still not fit perfectly. A smaller shank may fit in further and get more stability

Another reason may relate to the taper of the receiver.

Whatever the reason if the mouthpiece wobbles in the leadpipe, it's leaking air. This may very well be the reason the low register is problematic.

Go spend a buck (or half a quid as the case may be) and buy plumbers teflon tape, wrap two turns around the mouthpiece shank and play the instrument again. I would be interested in the results of your experience.

jeopardymaster · Post by **jeopardymaster** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:46 am

All (2) copies of this model that I ever tried had standard receivers on them, so I never thought to ask why MY mouthpiece fit. Among many other players who frequent this site, I know that Sam Gnagey and John Hardisky both play Rudy 5/4 CCs. How big a deal is it to change the receiver on one of these gems, guys? Did you do it or have it done, or was the horn like that when you bought it, or are you working with the receiver the way it was brought into the world?

JHardisk · Post by **JHardisk** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:48 pm

Dave,

You've named 2 players who've both switched from the Rudy 5/4 to something else!

Sam has also gone to a smaller tuba.

On my old Rudy, the receiver was a great fit for an American shank mpc. On the Rudy I still have at work, the receiver is a European shank. They differ in age by about 10-15 years. (Mine was early 90's, work horn was early 2000's). As far as switching out the leadpipe, I considered it often. In combination with a bending and getting it off the bell, I think this could have been a positive adjustment for my horn. However, I just couldn't get past the clarity issues of a big Rotary tuba. The sound was fabulous, but clarity and attacks were terribly demanding! In addition, the Rudy 5/4's that I have/had are the least air efficient tubas I've ever played! Switching to a Baer tuba was a no brainer! (I wish it wasn't such a wallet hit!)

I'd love to have my old horn sitting around for big stuff that needs a "german" voice, but we don't play a ton of "that" kind of music in a military band.

oedipoes · Post by **oedipoes** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:57 pm

Hi,

I'm a fan of the Rudolf Meinl instruments, ever since I played them in Frankfurt.
The 5/4 BBb Bayreuth model that herr Meinl had on display was a nice fit for my Denis Wick 2L. Both for shank size fit, as for playing.
Also the larger 6/4 BBb was no problem.
I use the same mouthpiece on my Yamaha YBB321 and my old large-bore German kaiser. (it fits 10mm deeper into the kaiser, but it's pitched a little too low, so no problem.)

Wim

oedipoes · Post by **oedipoes** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:18 pm

JHardisk wrote: However, I just couldn't get past the clarity issues of a big Rotary tuba. The sound was fabulous, but clarity and attacks were terribly demanding! In addition, the Rudy 5/4's that I have/had are the least air efficient tubas I've ever played! Switching to a Baer tuba was a no brainer! (I wish it wasn't such a wallet hit!)

I'd love to have my old horn sitting around for big stuff that needs a "german" voice, but we don't play a ton of "that" kind of music in a military band.

Did you encounter the same clarity problem on all large BBb rotary horns you played (M/W Fafner, Miraphone 191 or even 4/4 Rudy BBb) ? Or was it worse on a Rudy? Would you say this is caused by the size of the horn, or would this be bore-related. Or maybe rotary valves vs pistons are the cause?
I need to do some test playing side by side again, but the 5/4 Rudy Bayreuth seemed the most air-efficient of all BBb kaiser tubas I tried, including the Fafner, Mira 191 and Willson piston 3100 FA-5.
(As for least air efficient tuba, some older Besson sovereign 994 BBb I played was a fine applicant... )

Wim
(saving up for a Rudy, not sure about 5/4 or 4/4 yet, bank account says I still have some time to decide

)

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:24 pm

The Rudy 5/4 BBb I tried had a beautiful sound, but certainly did take the air - but no more than my former Cerveny Kaiser, or Fafner I have tried. I wonder if the large diameter leadpipe which seems traditional on Kaiser tubas is the reason? I certainly prefer my Neptune with the smaller bore leadpipe. The Rudy I tried also came with smaller pipe, but I never tried it with that and wonder what difference that would have made? I just might have been playing a Rudy today instead of Neptune???

oedipoes · Post by **oedipoes** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:38 pm

Neptune wrote:The Rudy 5/4 BBb I tried had a beautiful sound, but certainly did take the air - but no more than my former Cerveny Kaiser, or Fafner I have tried. I wonder if the large diameter leadpipe which seems traditional on Kaiser tubas is the reason? I certainly prefer my Neptune with the smaller bore leadpipe. The Rudy I tried also came with smaller pipe, but I never tried it with that and wonder what difference that would have made? I just might have been playing a Rudy today instead of Neptune???

A late post on this topic, I was doing some 'Bayreuth' searching on the Tubenet.

I see on their website that the rudys can be supplied with a removeable leadpipe, so it's possible to interchange with maybe a smaller one??
It would be a great feature to make cleaning easier anyway. (a bayreuth sized bath-tub would cost you the same...)

Wim

Wyvern · Post by **Wyvern** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:24 pm

oedipoes wrote:I see on their website that the rudys can be supplied with a removeable leadpipe, so it's possible to interchange with maybe a smaller one??
It would be a great feature to make cleaning easier anyway. (a bayreuth sized bath-tub would cost you the same...)

That is exactly like the one I tried. Had the two exchangeable leadpipes (medium and large) the same as the Neptune. Easy cleaning is a side benefit. I regularly remove the pipe off my Neptune and run snake through to clean. Minimises dirt getting into the rotary valves.

oedipoes · Post by **oedipoes** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:20 am

Neptune wrote:
oedipoes wrote:I see on their website that the rudys can be supplied with a removeable leadpipe, so it's possible to interchange with maybe a smaller one??
It would be a great feature to make cleaning easier anyway. (a bayreuth sized bath-tub would cost you the same...)
That is exactly like the one I tried. Had the two exchangeable leadpipes (medium and large) the same as the Neptune. Easy cleaning is a side benefit. I regularly remove the pipe off my Neptune and run snake through to clean. Minimises dirt getting into the rotary valves.

What do you use the larger and the smaller leadpipe for?
Seems like a very nice feature.

Wim

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