Mouthpiece for a Besson 983

[ASTuba]

Hi everyone,

I've been asked to play in another Brass Band this fall and I'm trying to get used to a new-to-me tuba. It's a Besson 983 and my usual F tuba mouthpieces aren't really working. Anyone have any suggestions as to what to try on the 983?

To give you an idea, I normally use a PT-65 on my F tuba, and I'm a small Helleberg (Warburton copies) guy on my CC tuba. Tried an Alliance T3 in the 983 and that seemed to work ok. Who is making those mouthpieces?

Thanks everyone for your help!

Andy

[djwesp]

These horns are very mouthpiece sensitive.

I have tried many mouthpieces over the last five years. Still haven't quite figured it out, but because a mouthpiece changes the color of these horns so much... I have started on th JF mouthpieces.

For solo I play a T6E, very shallow, very small rim diameter. For quintet/small ensembles I play the T6C. For big ensembles I play a T6AA. I make sure I stay on the same rim diameter for ease of conversion as well as not to disturb muscular formation against the rim.

These horns are golden, but if you don't get the right mouthpiece in these boogers the tuning will drive you BONKERS.

[ken k]

The Denis Wick 3L is the piece that Besson provides with it. The big bowl mouthpeice is very common for Eb tubas in England from what I have been told. This mouthpiece was designed after the Bach 24AW, which is what John Fletcher used on his Boosey Eb back in the day. somewhere on my computer I have an article writeten about this. if I can find it I will post it.

My partner on Eb in thr Lancaster BBB uses a 3L on his 983. I have a Boosey 3+1 which is similar to the Besson 981and I used a Conn Helleberg for years. Lately I have been using the Sellmansberger 1 (blokepiece SS mouthpiece). Nothing too exotic (except for the blokepiece) but they seem to work.

ken k

[ken k]

Found it!!!
This was originally sent to me by Tom Brekhus a few years back:

Hi,

I've got a copy of the John Fletcher biography "A Celebration: John Fletcher, tuba extraordinary" in which John Fletcher himself says the following about mouthpieces on the Besson Eb tubas he was playing.

John Fletcher died in 1987, so this had to be written at least a few years before then, although I do not know the exact date. The book itself was published in 1997.

"I have for years used a Bach 24AW with the Eb, but others feel that this is tool large and are using the Denis Wick 3. This was designed very much with this instrument in mind and suits it excellently. There are also smaller and larger Wick models which should be investigated if possible. Another very good medium-large mouthpiece is the Conn 7B. Whatever mouthpiece a decent Eb player finishes up with, it is almost certain to be bigger than the small one which has always been supplied with the instrument, and thereby hand a very sore point. Even with this smaller mouthpiece the new Ebs from B&H are barely up to pitch. With a larger mouthpiece--even with the shank turned down--they are monstrously flat when played by a a good player with a non-stretch embouchure. The only cure known to me is to cut about one a half inches off each side of the back-bow. B&H claim that they leave the factory dead in tune with their oscilloscope and that they have had no complaints from anyone else. Perhaps they all complain to me instead! Many people experience flatness in the high register, particularly with high B treble clef (sounding D) and using larger mouthpiece possibly accentuates this. The degree of flatness varies from instrument to instrument. Futhermore, there are too many peple about who play in tune with large mouthpieces--and even more who play flat with small ones--for any clear conclusion to be drawn about the effect of large mouthpieces on this problem. I would argue that a larger mouthpiece gives greater scope for more effective use of the facial muscles around the embouchure in developing the high register, ultimately giving the player much more control over the pitch of notes than if he just stretches, presses hard, and hopes for the best. The new, larger leadpipe which is to become standard, goes some way toward improving this fault, as well as opening up the sound more throughout the range." -John Fletcher


Hope you find it interesting,

Tom Brekhus

[Z-Tuba Dude]

For my money, the PT-72 works great!

[Tundratubast]

When I received my 983, it was shipped with a Wick 3XL. I than acquired a Dillon; Pat Sheridan model, P.S.#3; it worked pretty well even with a slightly larger shank. I also just picked up a new mpc. recommended by Lee Stofer, (TBN sponsor) a Rudolph Mienl #9 with a 7.8 bore. It has a funnelish cup, nice, & easy playing piece. I like it much better than either of the others and it has become my primary.

In addition, my silver 983 w/ case will soon be coming up for sale, PM me directly if your interested.

[imperialbari]

Found it!!!
This was originally sent to me by Tom Brekhus a few years back:

Hi,

I've got a copy of the John Fletcher biography "A Celebration: John Fletcher, tuba extraordinary" in which John Fletcher himself says the following about mouthpieces on the Besson Eb tubas he was playing.

John Fletcher died in 1987, so this had to be written at least a few years before then, although I do not know the exact date. The book itself was published in 1997.

"I have for years used a Bach 24AW with the Eb, but others feel that this is tool large and are using the Denis Wick 3. This was designed very much with this instrument in mind and suits it excellently. There are also smaller and larger Wick models which should be investigated if possible. Another very good medium-large mouthpiece is the Conn 7B. Whatever mouthpiece a decent Eb player finishes up with, it is almost certain to be bigger than the small one which has always been supplied with the instrument, and thereby hand a very sore point. Even with this smaller mouthpiece the new Ebs from B&H are barely up to pitch. With a larger mouthpiece--even with the shank turned down--they are monstrously flat when played by a a good player with a non-stretch embouchure. The only cure known to me is to cut about one a half inches off each side of the back-bow. B&H claim that they leave the factory dead in tune with their oscilloscope and that they have had no complaints from anyone else. Perhaps they all complain to me instead! Many people experience flatness in the high register, particularly with high B treble clef (sounding D) and using larger mouthpiece possibly accentuates this. The degree of flatness varies from instrument to instrument. Futhermore, there are too many peple about who play in tune with large mouthpieces--and even more who play flat with small ones--for any clear conclusion to be drawn about the effect of large mouthpieces on this problem. I would argue that a larger mouthpiece gives greater scope for more effective use of the facial muscles around the embouchure in developing the high register, ultimately giving the player much more control over the pitch of notes than if he just stretches, presses hard, and hopes for the best. The new, larger leadpipe which is to become standard, goes some way toward improving this fault, as well as opening up the sound more throughout the range." -John Fletcher


Hope you find it interesting,

Tom Brekhus

This text must be from before circa 1982, when the Sovereign basses with large receivers and especially the fast expanding leadpipe for the 981 were introduced.

I never heard about Fletcher being involved with the development of the 983, and it wasn’t marketed until 5 or more years after his death.

There is a story about the Besson/B&H testplayer being a cornetist using a very small tuba mouthpiece and therefor playing the tubas on the very sharp side of their real pitch. Hence the tubas being flat when played by real tubists.

When I went for a compensating Eb in 1999, I tested the 983. It was impossibly restricted for me, when I tried it with the DW3L following it. I asked for a DW1L, but was warned that the 983 would go very flat with anything larger than the 3L. I insisted on trying a 1L, and the 983 opened up dramatically and IT DIDN’T GO FLAT, for me at least. I still took the 981 because I felt much more at home with its more open sound.

For many years I used the PT-50 on the 981, but I became tired of its round rim with no real inner edge, so since a year I use the Mike Finn 3H for the 981. MF has a less deep variant of the 3H (is it the 5H), which might be the real thing for the 983.

I also have the blokepiece version #1, which works well my Boosey F, which has the same bore, but a much less bell flare than the 981. The blokepiece also would work on the 981, only I find the MF3H a better match for that tuba.

Since my acquisition of the blokepiece a version #2 has been issued with a wider backbore. The blokepieces aren’t cheap and they are not widely available for a try-out. But the combination of the 983 and the blokepiece #2 might prove itself the real thing.

Klaus

[Peach]

In general for Eb in band something moderately small diameter with a deep cup works well.

Over here in the UK, the VAST majority of Brass Banders use either a Wick 3L or Bach 24AW. I could never get much beef to the low register with these small mouthpieces but they make the Besson Eb's sing in-and-above the staff; great for brass band.

I'm surprised though your PT65 doesn't work. The Wick 3SL isn't enormously different and was designed for/with Pat Sheridan and the 983.

The Alliance 3 you tried should be a good bet.

[ken k]

yes I realize my post did not directly relate to the 983, but I meant it for English style Ebs in general.

I have heard, as Peach also stated, that the 3L and 24AW are used by many in England on the Eb tubas.

I never liked them too much because I use my Eb for all around playing not just brass band work and I always felt I needed something a bit larger to open up the low register. So I used the Helleberg for many years and was very pleased. I recently made a switch to a blokepiece in an effort to bring a little more color to the generally dark tone of my Boosey, which is built like a tank with lots of bracing and a fairly heavy guage of brass. I also raised the leadpipe off of the bell and removed a few braces which helped a bit.

[ASTuba]

The 65 was ok in the tuba, but it didn't work as well in the lower register as the Alliance did. Maybe I should just stick with that Alliance. Keep the suggestions coming! Thanks to all!

[imperialbari]

I will not repeat my suggestions, only make an observation of two lines along which to choose mouthpieces:

Some players choose mouthpieces making a given tuba fit into a pre-patterned ensemble sound. As a former choir master I understand that. Voices making themselves very noticeable by a large amount of overly bright overtones will ruin section as well as overall sound unity. Dark and full voices are less dangerous as they rather tend to unify the overall sound, as long as they are not the only voice type. If so dullness would be a danger.

Some players choose mouthpieces to bring the full potentials out of their tubas. They then work from there, which may include extreme attention to low dynamics, if their tubas have a very full sound.

I rather tend to go with the latter approach, but then the responsibility also includes bringing the right tuba in the first place. The Eb tuba has sort of an odd role in the British brass band style. It is used a the bass soloist in many original compositions for brass band, and like the usage of the Eb basses as tutti instruments, these original compositions display very good writing.

I have said this before, but I happen to find the Eb tuba out of place in many arrangements of orchestral music set for brass band. The BBb bass very closely matches the range of the orchestral string bass, which carries the contrabass line. The true conical brass instrument to carry the bass line an octave higher is the euphonium. If the Eb basses are put on the bass line (often because the euphs are needed for other musical functions), then the bass line becomes too heavy in the balance and without the overtone pattern needed to glue the higher instrumental voices together. This problem becomes really bad, it 4/4 or larger CC tubas are placed on the Eb tuba part because of the easy reading of the Eb parts for non-transposing bass clef readers.

I am not sure the Besson 983 is widely used in brass bands, but it hardly can be accused for being on the big side, so with this instrument I think Andy should go with a mouthpiece bringing the best out of all of the range.

Klaus

[iiipopes]

Klaus, the problem is in the instrument, and what it has evolved to in the last generation. In the quest in the last generation for a "bigger" sound, the Eb tuba has been bloated up to try to be an equal to the BBb. I agree. It just doesn't work that way. With modern Eb brass band comp tubas, regardless of make, having larger bores and up to a 19 inch bell, they don't blend anymore.

Up until a generation ago, the standard Eb tuba in a brass band had a .689 bore and a 15 inch bell. This matched the BBb tubas, which had a .730 bore and a 17 inch bell, very well. Played in context, this instrument did play the octave and other "texture" bass parts in a tone that had great blend and actually slotted better with BBb tubas, since it was made in a similar physical construction, leaving the euphonium to go pursue other parts. In the context of your comments about orchestral transcriptions, for example, an orchestral arrangement of something like Mendelssohn's "Elijah," "It Is Enough," You can conceptualize that a proper smaller bore Eb tuba knitting with the BBb instruments would support the chords taken by the horns and stay out of the way of the euph playing the theme that is derived from the cello, then later the upper voices coming in at the vocal parts, etc.

[ZNC Dandy]

Not sure if this would translate to a 983, but the Schilke Helleberg II mad a tremendous noise in the Besson 982 I tried for awhile. Great fit for that horn. Not sure about the 983 though.

[Steve Marcus]

I've been using a Laskey 30C on my 983 (I use a 30H on my CC), and it seems to work well in most ranges, particularly the low- and mid-ranges.

What mouthpiece would you recommend to facilitate the high range on the 983?

[imperialbari]

I've been using a Laskey 30C on my 983 (I use a 30H on my CC), and it seems to work well in most ranges, particularly the low- and mid-ranges.

What mouthpiece would you recommend to facilitate the high range on the 983?

Steve, I took a look at the Laskey spec’s page, as I haven’t been around Laskey mouthpieces. Your equipment, moutpiecewise, already is smaller than what I would take for the same tubas. Yet your choices in my eyes are right for a person built less grossly than I am.

I haven’t heard you having problems when going from CC to the BBb circlophones, so if you have a problem on the 983, real or perceived, it may be with your approach. The same problem is experienced by trombonists going from tenor to alto or tenor to bass. The latter is the reverse situation of yours, but here is a story about the lead trombone of the brass band section where I was bass almost 40 years ago, whom I met again in a big band summer camp 10 years later, he on 3rd, I on 5th.

During a Sunday break I optimised the cleaning and lubrication of his slide and afterwards he tried my large symphony trombone, which he had a hard time filling. He found it far too big compared to his King 3B. But as we both were trained in singing, I just asked him to apply more body resonance, and everything sounded just fine.

If you play the high range on the 983 like you do on the Nirschl, you will be very close to overloading the shallower mouthpiece and the narrower bore. If you try a falsetto approach in your air supply you may come out on the thin side, soundwise, but then you have the two approaches from which to work out a functional compromise.

Klaus

[kingconn]

schilke 67 or a bach 22. The 22 is a great mouthpiece for an Eb, slightly bigger than the 24aw but without the fat rim. So why doesn't somebody make a 24a without the "w"?
mike

[iiipopes]

I agree that in my experience the Wick 2 was a little too "tubby" for an Eefer.

[ral1988]

Pat Sheridan made a mouthpiece for this horn - the Dillion PS2. I'm not sure if dillion still makes it though.

That's the mouthpiece I use - it has the traditional german cup and fits just fine into the receiver.