Please to explain "handmade"

[Rotaryclub]

I know there are a lot of really smart people on the forum and some have experience in history, sales, and/or manufacturing so I hope you can help with a topic.

For several years some makers have advertised that some of their horns are handmade, or can be ordered in a handmade version. I know what it means, and have played both versions of the big Alan Baer horn on several occasions, and I can tell a difference and agree with the stated benefits of that horn when it's handmade.

My question is mostly about brands and when they moved to the more automated process:


1. Are there any companies who still routinely handmake all their models?

2. When did this process start, or when did each company start using machines to make those certain parts of the horn-particularly if you can find out when your tuba was made can you say it was handmade? (I have a PT-6 I bought new in 1996 and one I bought in 2000. Are they handmade)?

3. It seems you mostly read about the large 6/4 C tubas sometimes made this way. Do smaller or higher pitched horns not benefit as much from the difference?

4. Can you look at a horn and tell easily if it is handmade?

5. And finally, did they pass the savings on to us?


Thanks

[oedipoes]

The term 'handmade' is mostly about the bell, and the large bows.
The traditional way of making a large bow, is cutting the pattern out of sheetmetal, folding it by hammering and soldering the joint together. Same for the bell.
After that, the tube is bent to a bow, by hand.

It has the advantage of having exactly the same metal thickness in the tube.

The 'automated' way of making bows, is to start from a conical tube, and bend it on a bending machine.
The tube collapses during this process.
After that, the tube is hydraulically put under high pressure in a die.
The tube 'plops' open again, and the section becomes circular again.
The bent area has stretched during bending, so the metal is thinner there.

The traditional way can be recognised on bare brass or laquered instruments, you can actually see the joint.
See pictures attached: one from a besson compensating in the for sale section, one from my own german kaiser tuba.

Wim

[Tuba Guy]

This is a question to Neptune about my new tuba. I see that it has those same marks (where the metal was connected). Does that mean the horn was "handmade"? (I probably should know this, but this is just to clarify it for me in the long term...thanks)

[Wyvern]

This is a question to Neptune about my new tuba. I see that it has those same marks (where the metal was connected). Does that mean the horn was "handmade"? (I probably should know this, but this is just to clarify it for me in the long term...thanks)

As far as I know the Cerveny 701 is indeed handmade. My understanding is that gold-brass and red-brass does not respond well to the hydraulic process explained by 'oedepoes', so these are always handmade in the traditional hand hammered way.

[Wyvern]

1. Are there any companies who still routinely handmake all their models?

Rudolf Meinl is a small company and all their tubas are handmade

2. When did this process start, or when did each company start using machines to make those certain parts of the horn-particularly if you can find out when your tuba was made can you say it was handmade? (I have a PT-6 I bought new in 1996 and one I bought in 2000. Are they handmade)?

I rather doubt either of your PT-6 are handmade. However, I note in an advert of 1991 in the 'TUBA Journal' that B&S claimed ALL their tubas were handmade at that time. Maybe someone here knows when B&S modernized?

3. It seems you mostly read about the large 6/4 C tubas sometimes made this way. Do smaller or higher pitched horns not benefit as much from the difference?

Gold-brass F tubas will be handmade, plus any from Rudolf Meinl as above. I think any tuba is better handmade. Smaller ones as much as 6/4's. However, economic reality with modern staff costs means most have to be hydraulically produced to be at a viable price. Handmade tubas typically cost 50% extra, or even more if special order as a one-off.

[Tuba Guy]

Very cool, thanks. That tuba just keeps getting cooler and cooler (and more and more comfortable to play).

[Wyvern]

Very cool, thanks. That tuba just keeps getting cooler and cooler (and more and more comfortable to play).

I am pleased the Kaiser has gone to a good home and is being appreciated

[Tuba Guy]

Once I find the perfect mouthpiece, there's a chance I'll be willing to give up my CB50 (don't tell her that, though). He's got a great sound (though I can't wait to find out how it sounds in a big group)
Again, thank you, it is an amazing tuba.

[cambrook]

For me "handmade" doesn't mean the complete absence of any machines (such as spinning lathes) during construction, it is that each of the tapered bows starts its life as sheet metal. The bows of "Production" instruments usually start life as tubing which is then hydraulically formed. If "handmade" is done correctly the wall thickness should be consistent, whereas hydraulically formed bows have a thicker wall at the small end - so that the larger end isn't too thin. This is why handmade instruments are usually lighter than their production equivalents.

This doesn't mean that "production" tubas are not very good instruments, some of them certainly are, but the only improvement that is offered by "production" is that the instruments are cheaper so more people can afford them.

Cheers,

Cam

[Mister JP]

2.I have a PT-6 I bought new in 1996 and one I bought in 2000. Are they handmade?

Thanks

I have a PT-6 that I bought new in 1993. At the time I remember that they were advertising "Handmade in Germany" as a selling feature. As mentioned above, however, the level of its hand-made-ness could still be in question.

[bort]

Hey TubaTinker -- were any of the Marzans handmade?

[Dan Schultz]

Hey TubaTinker -- were any of the Marzans handmade?

I would expect so. The 'big ones', anyway. They were made in the Bohm & Meinl factory (now Walter Nirschle's plant) in the early 70's.... at least the large bows.

[Chen]

This is a question to Neptune about my new tuba. I see that it has those same marks (where the metal was connected). Does that mean the horn was "handmade"? (I probably should know this, but this is just to clarify it for me in the long term...thanks)

As far as I know the Cerveny 701 is indeed handmade. My understanding is that gold-brass and red-brass does not respond well to the hydraulic process explained by 'oedepoes', so these are always handmade in the traditional hand hammered way.

I used to have a gold-brass Miraphone 181 F. I don't recall anyone telling/advertising it as handmade, so I'm not sure if every goldbrass tuba is handmade.

[Dylan King]

As far as I know, there's only one purely handmade tuba in existence...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FglBoGzMS7E
Made in Mexico

[Alex C]

In real handmade instruments, all of the tubing is made out of sheet brass.

Every tuba bell is "handmade" as are many of the large bows. The equipment used to expand a brass tube into a large bow is EXPENSIVE. If labor is cheap and capable, it is more cost effective to make large bows by hand.

It is in the smaller brass parts that a real handmade tuba differs from the mechanically made. Walter Nirschl explained his version of handmade to me:

A sheet of brass is cut to pattern, hand-hammered around a mandrel then, the seam is brazed and exterior is cleaned and finished. These are the general terms that most people understand.

The leadpipe will also go through this process and be lead-filled and bent to shape. The valve-slide bows will be hand-hammered on a mandrel to the proper shape. The only machined parts in a handmade Nirschl instrument are in the valve section.

The talltale sign of a handmade instrument is the presence of seams in all of the tubing. This shows where the brass was brazed. I have an pre-WW I Cerveny tuba where seams can be found on every brass part.

Modern Cerveny tuba are not handmade to this standard.

If you have an instrument in bare brass, look at the valve-slide bows and the leadpipe. If they have seams there, you have a truly handmade instrument. If not, you don't.

Handmade instrument do not necessarily play better, they play differently. Handmade tubas also cost a heck of a lot more.

[cambrook]

Every tuba bell is "handmade" as are many of the large bows.

I used to think so too, until I visited the Willson factory and saw how their bells are made. The flare section of the bells arrive at the factory looking like big brass flowerpots. The flare is straight-sided at this point, and they are then spun on a mandrel in the usual way.

Just a small point.....I agree with the rest of your post

Cheers,

Cam

[Alex C]

A fine point to be sure, but the bell flare is attached to the stack by hand, the stack is also made by hand. If you include the spinning, an awful lot of the bell is still handmade. Still, it is worth understanding that hydraulics and machine stamping are definitely part of the process now, even in bells.

I asked Mr. Jacobs about the difference between bells of some of the newer horns (of that time) and the vintage horns. His response was that machine-drawn bells tend to make good players sound more even but, they made great players sound less individual.

[bisontuba]

Hi-
A very interesting post. My c. mid 60's Mirafone 186-4U CC has seams on all the tubing--a hand made horn to be sure.
Regards-
mark
jonestuba@juno.com" target="_blank" target="_blank

PS With the subject of Joe's mouthpieces comimg 'round again, besides 6/4 horns and F tubas, you need to try a Bloke #1 or #2 on a horn like a vintage 186--amazing sound--truly amazing. mark

[oedipoes]

Hi-
A very interesting post. My c. 1960 Mirafone 186-4U CC has seams on all the tubing--a hand made horn to be sure.
Regards-
mark
jonestuba@juno.com" target="_blank" target="_blank

PS With the subject of Joe's mouthpieces comimg 'round again, besides 6/4 horns and F tubas, you need to try a Bloke #1 or #2 on a horn like a vintage 186--amazing sound--truly amazing. mark

My old kaiser too. All tubes have a seam.
Great old days...

Wim