Nirschl J-700 debate

[sffz]

I need to buy some tubas for my school.

Take a look at the J-700 and debate the merits of purchasing these for a high school band program. If you have comments you'd rather not post...well PM me. If you have relevant experience with the 3/4 horn that's been out for awhile I'd love to hear that too.

From the website
"Model J-700LQ 4/4 BBb Tuba
Bass

Four front action stainless steel pistons
· .748" bore
· 19" bell
· Genuine RGB Helleberg mouthpiece.
· Available in satin silver, silver plate or durable lacquer
· Durable plastic case with wheels
A great BBb tuba in the tradition of Meister Walter Nirschl and the Master Model produced by J.W. York & Sons."

The W.Nirschl Catalog listing
http://www.wnirschl.com/catalogpage.asp ... ductid=118
Pictures & Prices
http://www.barthsbrassblog.com/

Thanks
Randy "trying to be a good steward of the money I have"

[iiipopes]

For high school use, the best tuba is still the King 1241/2341: good overall intonation, good tone, moderate size, "nested" valve block that is easy to work on and keeps some of the tubing from being an automatic dent magnet.

Here's the problem with the Nirschl, the Jupiter 582, and other "open wrap" tubas: they are inevitable dent magnets in the hands of the average student, even a careful one.

Plus, the King has its quirks and variances over the years, but it's always been with the same .687 valve block, similar tubing circuitry, and having been made for about a century, any shop worth its tools will have old carcasses and other "crash parts" for straightforward relatively inexpensive repairs.

[Matt G]

In other words, the King 2341 is the Small Block Chevy of tubas.

[Alex C]

Well, the King 1241 isn't available as a new instrument anymore. I was never much of a fan of this horn. One thing about the 1241, it used to have thick metal and resist light dents but it's no longer listed on the King website.

I am not clear on what a 2341 is. King lists the 2341 as the BBb cousin to the Conn 5X's. Brasswind lists a picture of the 2341 which is similar to the 1241.

I like the new King for a lot of reasons but I don't like the character of its sound, or the sound of its cousin the Conn 5X-J's. That's a personal choice. I don't agree that King tubas repel dents in some way over the 'open-wrap' Jupiter. The 186 is well wrapped and dents are common. That's just school tubas.

In Texas, the 186 seems to be the ubiquitous first choice for a school tuba. Selling price, around $6500. If you were loaded with money (and who isn't these days?) you might consider the 1291 BBb.

The King 2341 selling price is 5700 and up.

I don't know what the selling price of the Nirschl will be but I'd bet it's lower than either of the other two.

The Jupiter 582 might end up being the closest price-wise. This tuba is a little small for my taste in a band tuba.

If you are still interested in the Nirschl, call a music dealer and play one to see if you think it would work in your band. I hear the September shipment is less than a dozen.

Disclosure: I am not affliated with Nirschl instruments. I don't sell them, I don't clinic for them. I own a Nirschl CC and have played and liked the J-700.

[tbn.al]

I love the VMI 3301. Particularly as a institutional horn. In tune, sounds great, built like a tank.

[The Jackson]

I'd be interested in hearing what kind of price cuts a school would get for ordering some new tubas (in a general sense, anyway).

[TexTuba]

VMI 3301? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

I couldn't agree more, Wade. They make great horns that are a blast to play. Hell, I might look into getting one for myself in the next year or two.

[Bob Kolada]

I've never liked the 3301, or really any VMI tuba other than the 2301. It's comfortable, they used to be fairly affordable used and plentiful there as well, and it's a nice size, but I just think the sound is kinda bland and small. I've never played a 2341, but I like the 56J better than the 3301 and I didn't care for that one too much either. I also don't like the Fafner either (though I WANTED to!). Time for a hanging, anyone?

For me, contrabass tubas start with the Miraphone 191 and end with the 1291 Bb.

[Mcordon1]

Nobody for Yamaha's YBB-321? Fantastic low end, and they're cheap! Great high school horn.

[iiipopes]

In other words, the King 2341 is the Small Block Chevy of tubas.

Good analogy. In another thread on another forum I compared it to a reliable sedan: works every day, minimum of maintenance required (clean it occasionally, oil the valves, grease the slides, get new corks and felts every couple of years, etc., you know, basic sedan maintenance), not flashy, gets the job done from beginning to end for all standard band literature.

Plus, there are many out there, both 1241 and 2341, slightly used that with a once-over by any one of the gentlemen here on the forum will last for years, and years, and years.

[sffz]

School prices, depending on the manufacturer and seller can be between 60-80 of list price. There are usually good reasons why each seller might be different like deals they might have received from the manufacturer for large volumes of orders etc.

Bloke - Due to the fine economic situation in Portland I am now the MS & HS director. The 1950's era Besson tubas that we have at the MS combined with the few sousas we have are getting us by right now. The HS inventory is in far worse shape. I can probably fundraise enough to buy I tuba a year for the next few years. There are no district/taxpayer funds available. BTW - I think the flutes are great and kids immediately improved. One of my low/no income kids was so excited, it was the first new thing she could every remember having. She is taking amazing care of it and PRACTICES. Thanks. I hope I can get a few more this year.

I would love to get the 2341s, but I need to investigate every possibility. I keep hoping there is some undiscovered gem out there. When I wake from that dream, I will be patient and maybe find some good condition used horns.

How does the 3301 compare to a PT-1 - I have played on a PT-1 but not on a 3301.

I really dislike the sound, ergonomics, softer metal etc of the Yamaha 4/4 horns of every shape.
In my perfect world I would buy 186's - not practical or realistic but would sound great!

Randy

[pattonsj]

There is only one answer to this debate. King 2341's. It's what we had in HS. We had the one's with detachable bells and used to put the bell fronts on and march with them until we got the Silver King sousas. The school now uses new 2341's with fixed bells and the MS/6th grade uses the old one's. Three out of 4 were built in the early 80s and are in great shape. It's one of those rare horns that I pull main out some, third slide a little and just play it. When I was in college the director would have me come back to the HS and grab one of the old Kings and push all the slide all the way in and sit where I couldn't see the Stroboconn and play all the notes in tune to prove that no matter where you put your tuning slides, you can always play in tune. The Kings made this demonstration very easy. Just my opinion...

[Mcordon1]

$5,223.00 - lacquer finish / no case

I talked to my old band director today. My senior year in high school they bought 4 new Lacquer YBB-321s w/ cases for under 4k each.

And they're low end was better than my old 186's. I could crush a pedal D on those Yamahas. I guess I would rate their low end "above average for a 4/4 BBb". You were right on calling me out on the "fantastic".

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
funny story...

My drum corps friend told me the other day his old high school ordered 2 BBb Cervenys(the model he couldn't recall) w/ cases. The horns arrived separate from the cases, and when the cases arrived, there were horns in them! They checked the receipt(s). They were charged for 2 tubas w/ cases. 2 free tubas.

[k001k47]

I believe, were I a middle school band director, I'd be perfectly happy with a couple of (new-style - manufactured within the last couple of decades) King (and certainly not Jupiter!) model 2370 fiberglass sousaphones...and (perhaps) a couple of Wenger sousa chairs. (Again) Were I a middle school band director, the last thing I'd want to have to mess with would be annually dented-up 3/4-size brass tubas that were, from time-to-time, missing some of their obscure-manufacturer parts. King 2470 fiberglass sousaphones are, nearly, indestructible. They function well, sound like nice big 4/4-size instruments, are lightweight, collapsible/transportable, can be taken to an occasional parade, and can probably be acquired for under $3K (competitive bid "new") or (if completely restored-like-new/used) about half that amount. If one "really" wanted to get "cute", they could locate some spare King sousaphone bells, and let the kids keep the spare bells at home.

Dancing sousaphone players in the middleschool of a concert was the first image that popped into my head.

[Matt G]

We used King 2340's (3V) all through high school on some fairly severe literature. Admittedly, I used my 186 for the low stuff, but the 2340's had a decent enough false tones to work. We had a (circa late 1980s) YBB-321, and the folks who could play stayed away from it. Not only did it "feel" less free blowing than the Kings, it also didn't have the carrying power, the pitch wasn't as reliable, and the ergonomics were terrible.

I've played better YBB-321s since then, the Besson non-Comp 3+1 and owned a 994. I thought the compensating 994 was freer blowing than all of its derivatives, with better sound and pitch.

[iiipopes]

I'm with bloke about all the reasons NOT to get rotary tubas for high school band.

[Mitch]

Sffz - it's worth your while to look into what would be involved in getting the W Nirschl horns.

I played the prototype of this horn at MidWest in Dec 2007 and was awfully impressed. I thought it to be a very free-blowing, resonant horn. I remember thinking that any school that had a section's worth of those horns couldn't possibly blame a poor tuba section on the equipment. The joints looked clean and straight, the horn seemed tight, the valves tight and smooth. I was impressed, honestly, especially considering the bulk of the "student-level tuba" market, for which it seems $5,000 gets you a $2,000 horn with a $3,000 up-charge. I specifically remember thinking that if they priced it right, they'd overtake the market in no time. If I remember correctly, that prototype came out of the facility where the horns were to be built; the quality seemed to be on a par with any other European-built horn.

One thing that's changed is that (from what I recall) the original plans were going to have the horns built in India, whereas now I guess they're coming out of Brazil.

According to Richard Barth last year, the "street price" was supposedly going to be aiming for a price sub-$5,000. It's DEFINITELY worth exploring.

(I've been pestering him, as I'd like to see what it would cost to get my hands on a valveset for my 6/4 Martin. If they were competitive on that, they'd overtake that market, as well, I think.)