Seeking apprenticeship

[Mike-ICR]

A lot of people can do a lot of things... I can change the oil in my car but I'm not a lube tech. Sure Dan can make whatever he needs whenever he needs it but that doesn't he's a pro bell spinner or valve set maker. He does wonderful work, don't get me wrong, his results are usually as good or better than factory.

Have you approached the US makers like Kanstul or the Elkart companies? They probably won't be interested in a 3 week visit but they may need someone in their repair shops and you could snoop from there for a year or so.

[The Big Ben]

Have you approached the US makers like Kanstul or the Elkart companies? They probably won't be interested in a 3 week visit but they may need someone in their repair shops and you could snoop from there for a year or so.

Might be risky. I used to work in a meat market and now don't really care to eat much meat.

[tubarnak]

A lot of people can do a lot of things... I can change the oil in my car but I'm not a lube tech. Sure Dan can make whatever he needs whenever he needs it but that doesn't he's a pro bell spinner or valve set maker. He does wonderful work, don't get me wrong, his results are usually as good or better than factory.

Have you approached the US makers like Kanstul or the Elkart companies? They probably won't be interested in a 3 week visit but they may need someone in their repair shops and you could snoop from there for a year or so.

Very true; but that's way closer to my goal than where I'm at right now...
I also found 3-year school programs in Germany which go through the basic skills of brass instrument making and after the program, you get a chance to pursue a Master Craftsman certificate after having done sufficient intern time in a shop. So this means 4-6 years plus the time needed to become very proficient in German...
What I'm looking for right now is an alternative to this. If nothing else works this is probably the way I'll explore.
Well; I was offered a job by Zig Kanstul, which I respectfully declined due to the immense changes I would have had to do in my life at that time...
That was a possibility for a permanent position and I was still a rookie by then, I would probably still be buffing tuning slides by now but I still regret that decision...

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Seeking an apprenticeship is really tough, They typically don't simply fall into ones lap. I was lucky (sort of) but I had to pay some serious dues. How much are you willing pay? If you are willing and can afford the cost in time, money and your own personal hide, I say go for it!

Building instruments and performing high end restorations are not really the same line of work. Restoration and repair rely on the hand skills of the craftsperson and the knowledge of tooling, materials and the many hand working processes. It also required a lot more experience and training. Standard production of brass instruments is dictated by the tooling, the worker is simply processing the materials and assembling the parts. Yes, there are parts of the production process that calls for a high degree of skill such as spinning bells and polishing. Most other stages of manufacturing can be learned relatively quick. If you mess up a part, you simply grab another and proceed with the job. This approach does not work so well when you are restoring a ninety year old double french horn bell. Soldering new instruments is fairly straight forward and the skills can be picked up relatively quickly. Soldering old fragile instruments is done with considerably more care and forethought. This is not to take anything away from the instrument makers, I have nothing but the utmost respect for all of them. I am just pointing out some of the differences.


I began my pursuit of the trade when I was about fourteen (or there about). That was when I settled on the trade of being a band instrument Tech. I would eventually focus on the more complex and difficult work but you have to walk before you can run. My years of training included the time I studied metal fabrication (5 years), this included machine shop training, welding/brazing, foundry work. Tech school was next; They called it "trade school" then (2 1/2 years). This is when I started working on instrument exclusively. I also studied luthier work over three summers. Knowing how to perform standard repairs on violins and guitars was handy and re-hairing bows provided me with some very decent paychecks in those first years on the job. I then went to work in the silver smithing and electroplating industry (1 1/2 years) This was a valuable experience but proved very hazardous to my health, a past that I don't ever want to repeat. I then was able to land a position with a large music company that hired a Master Journeyman (trained and worked for CG Conn and others as a factory Repair Tech, 30+ yrs experience at the time) to oversee my formal apprenticeship (5 years). While doing so I eventually became the Forman of the shop. I enjoyed this period in spite of the ups and downs. Apprenticeships like the one I had, did not just involve me working there. I studied my *** off. I was tested regularly. My work was inspected and graded by the Master and my Employers. I often worked on projects that provided little in the way of $$ but that was expected. When I completed my obligations to the company and proved my skills, I received my recognition as a full journeyman. The next two years after having demonstrated my metal spinning, plating, engraving and fabrication skills, I was given a hand shake by my teacher and received my recognition by him as a Master-Journeyman. No diploma, no document just a firm hand shake from Master Repair man Mr. West and being told how proud he was of me. The hug from my Dad and the pride in my Parents and Grand parent's eyes was even better the day I officialy opened my own business, best experience I could ever hope for. A few years later, I started training my own employees but I don't think I could ever do as good a job as those who shared there knowledge with me and provided the support for that thick skulled young man so many years ago.

My basic time line so far;


Late 1970s: start preparing and learning skills that will be of use in the trade.

1980s: Learn the trade, study a lot, develop and build on my basic skills. Work and grow up.

1990s: Leap of faith; build my own shop, learn to run a business, train work staff, add more to skill sets, make a lot of mistakes and learn from them. Work and produce more then I ever did.

2000s: Take more risks, experiment. Continue to study and add to skill sets...

Not sure if my ramblings are of help but maybe somthing to ponder. Time to get back to work. Best of luck with your endeavor.

Daniel C. Oberloh

[tubarnak]

There must be a reason why I shouldn't post a reply... TWICE I took a good hour to figure out how to phrase it, write it and TWICE have I been logged off automatically and LOST EVERYTHING!!!

Thank you so much for replying (again) Mr Oberloh, it really means a lot to me. Every reply I got helped me figuring out what I really wanted but this last one gave me an insight on what had to be accomplished to get there.

Seeking an apprenticeship is really tough, They typically don't simply fall into ones lap. I was lucky (sort of) but I had to pay some serious dues. How much are you willing pay? If you are willing and can afford the cost in time, money and your own personal hide, I say go for it!

I figured out I couldn't give 5-7 years full time to perfect my skills outside of the country since I already have a running business and I'm the only one around here who can offer what I'm offering.

I'll never have to restore a 90 year old horn to better than factory specs here and beat up school horns will always be my bread and butter but there is not enough school work in the region for a brass specialist, not even enough work if you count in all the pro work; this is why I'd like to be able to buy beaters and restore them, for the pleasure of seeing them come back to life and hopefully make a few bucks doing it.

For that I need a stronger set of repair skills and some manufacturing skills, including sheet metal work, spinning, slide drawing, factory finish polishing and lacquering, among other things.

A lot of this can be learned through normal channels like NAPBIRT conventions, courses and clinics but would take 10 years and 50000$ worth of fees and transportation to match a few weeks spent with a master, spent exclusively on specific aspects of brass work.
Some of these skills are not taught through these channels and have to be learned through a skilled craftsman who's willing to share his experience, for a monetary or labor compensation or not.

That's why by posting this topic here I was casting a line, hoping to get something like " Sure, we could take you in for a week or two, providing you pay for the time you're costing the shop" but I guess it's more complicated than that... It all seems so simple in my head...

What I'd like to be able to accomplish is something like the restorations performed on the Miraphone 186's you have posted on your website. Everytime I visit your page on "Tony's tuba" it brings a tear to my eye in contemplation...
Another line of work I'd like to explore is odd and unusual instruments. Not many people around here have the money to buy a 20000$ horn to play it 4 times a year; I'd like to be able to assemble or handcraft cheaper, decent sounding cimbassi or contra bones so we can play the music that needs those instruments or heck - subcontra instruments just for the fun of it!

Apprenticeships like the one I had, did not just involve me working there. I studied my *** off.

What were your sources? Where to start? Are these sources available to the grand public? I bought and went through every book I could find on the history of brass instruments, brass makers, acoustics of musical instruments, properties of materials, old and modern manufacturing techniques but never found anything other than BIR program textbooks, clinics and conference notes and the Eric Brand Manual for instrument repair and restoration techniques.
As an example I never saw anyone use a soldering iron in any course or clinic I've attended, before I visited your website and yet, it makes perfect sense and seems like THE technique to use in thin sheet metal soldering applications. This is the stuff I'm talking about...

Wow, long post, sorry about that!

So again, thank you all so much for taking the time to reply!
I'll go back to figuring out how to get where I want to be.