Is a CC horn Wrong??

[JB]

simma

How do you write it in English??

[Stefan]

I think that it is important to reiterate to the original poster that no one person can know everything about every subject. Your band director may have been at the top of his class in college. Perhaps his brass class did not have tuba in it (mine didn't). There could be any number of reasons why he doesn't know about this. You have learned by now that a CC tuba can be played in a concert band. The question is what are you going to do now. His only fault in this situation was not making sure about his facts. Doesn't make him a bad person and he doesn't deserve any disrespect from a student. If your parents want to take it up with him, that's a different story. Your parents are in a better position to question him - although they ought to do it with respect as well.

Of course, the other comments about him trying to "soften the blow" could be legit too. These days, teachers have the "don't hurt their feelings" mantra rammed down their throats. But I don't know - maybe this isn't the case.

If I were you, I would just continue bringing your C to school. You bought the tuba and it's too hard to go back and forth between fingerings at this stage. Maybe he will forget about it - especially if you play well. But if he says something again, explain the problem with your parents and show them this thread. I just hope you don't go to your teacher to "correct him". Yes, it's OK to disagree with your teacher. And you can express this to him. But it should be done right.

Stefan Antwarg

[dopey]

Correct me if im wrong(which I may very well be)

But if your CC has a 5th valve, and is capable, can you not tune it so you may depress it to lower the pitch of the horn to Bb and play BBb fingerings?

if the reason the director is making these statements is because you haven't had the C horn long and are still going through the transition. This may allow you to continue to play it in concert band. Ofcourse dont' make this a habbit, I would play CC fingering but if I saw one I couldn't remember right quick, just pop 5th and the Bb fingering down...

Just a suggestion...

Jacob"who would hate to be switching to CC so close to our christmas concert"

[Steve Inman]

Ok. sorry for me not being as aged or as knowledged as you. But, what i meant(and from what ive see on fingering charts) is that on the lower notes of different keys(F, Eb, CC and BBb if you didn't know that)are fingered differently. But when you get medium to high on the staff, they become about the same. jesus christ. i meant im musically talented for a 14 year old, not a 41 year old.

it's thanks giving for freakin' christ's sake. simma down. eat some turkey and drink some wine.

1. There is a higher probability of a high note happening to have the same fingering on different keyed tubas than a low note. You are correct.
2. Technically, this is a convenient "accident". But it can help players who own tubas in two different keys to switch back and forth more easily.
3. This isn't true in my case -- Eb and CC -- unless I pretent the tuba music is in treble clef when playing the Eb, and then use the CC fingerings. But then I may as well just learn the bass clef notes anyway.
4. Since your previous post wasn't very precise, it led to an unfortunate reply which was lacking in diplomacy. That was unfortunate.
5. If you really do care about proper BBS behavior "for Christ's sake", then I would appreciate it if you didn't use His name in the manner that you did in the quote above.

Many thanks,

[MartyNeilan]

jesus christ....
it's thanks giving for freakin' christ's sake

If you want to blaspheme, young man, please take it somewhere else.

FWIW, it requires far more talent to play one or two instruments well than many instruments poorly.
There are world class symphony players and university professors on this board (I confess to being neither), so you may want to consider changing your signature. THEY are musically talented, and they don't usually blaspheme either.

[Alan Baer]

Don't listen to a word that this guy is saying...
(he's probably is a woodwind picker anyway)
If he has his head that far up his back side he should not be teaching public school... You'll be shooting yourself in the foot by picking up the BBb for the band. You will lack clarity and with that, the band will have a tougher time locking onto the the intonation of the low voice.( yes I know all you BBb guys are grumbling) There are other reasons that I won't go into at this time.. ALSO, tuba parts are non transposing... Written in C. if you see a C, and you play a C, that's what comes out the bell..
In short, tell this guy to take a hike....
It's examples like this (bad teaching) that hold SO many tubist back. You have a player that has purchased an instrument, made a commitment to the horn on one hand. In the other you have a teacher who knows nothing but what he learned in 1 weeks time or less in class brass telling him the wrong thing to do.. I think I've made my point....
Don't let a music teachers inadequacies in teaching determine your road to musicianship or playing.
Alan Baer

[hurricane_harry]

well if your not getting the right sound in jazz band they may be because that you REALLY should be playing bass trombone. when i joined jazz i wanted to do jazz tuba but my band director told me if i wanted to do jazz i would have to learn bass trombone, because most the parts were originally written for it. i would suggest asking your band director if theres a bass trombone you can use. its a good skill to have, because if you choose to play in one of the smaller symphanies. you'll be playing bass trombone. the valve to slide change is wierd, but a good learning experience

I am one of those who like the German use of the F/BBb tuba combo for orchestra but I do love the sound of a good CC tuba and especially in Jazz.

Anyone who feels there is no place for tuba, and CC tuba in particular, in Jazz should head to THE MODERN JAZZ TUBA PROJECT at http://www.mjtproject.com/ and be prepared to change their opinion!

They have some sound files on the site at: http://webpages.charter.net/mjtproject/soundfiles.html

After that, head to Amazon or your nearest retailer and get their new album "FAVORITE THINGS" immediately. It is a wonderful CD to have.

well, with my band director in partiular, if we play something in jazz, were gonna try as hard as we can to play the original charts, and lets face it, coltrane didn't play with arnold jacobs, although jazz tuba does kick butt (tubas from hell, one of my favorite jazz albums), most charts don't have tuba parts. if the piece calls for a tuba, i'll be playing my BBb 3/4 king, and if it calls for bass trombone i'll be playing my yamaha double triger semiopen wrap bass trombone. i think hes trying to get me ready for the "real world" of music, cause i have seen many big bands where a guy will play bass bone for a few sets then break out a CC tuba for a few more. i am yet to see (although im shure they exist, if only in minority) a jazz ensemble with a tuba player that only plays tuba.

[Captain Sousie]

Don't listen to a word that this guy is saying...
(he's probably is a woodwind picker anyway)
If he has his head that far up his back side he should not be teaching public school... You'll be shooting yourself in the foot by picking up the BBb for the band. You will lack clarity and with that, the band will have a tougher time locking onto the the intonation of the low voice.( yes I know all you BBb guys are grumbling) There are other reasons that I won't go into at this time.. ALSO, tuba parts are non transposing... Written in C. if you see a C, and you play a C, that's what comes out the bell..
In short, tell this guy to take a hike....
It's examples like this (bad teaching) that hold SO many tubist back. You have a player that has purchased an instrument, made a commitment to the horn on one hand. In the other you have a teacher who knows nothing but what he learned in 1 weeks time or less in class brass telling him the wrong thing to do.. I think I've made my point....
Don't let a music teachers inadequacies in teaching determine your road to musicianship or playing.
Alan Baer

So, what you are saying is that because I am not very familiar with the bassoon that I should not be teaching band? I might make some comment about it that is taken to the extreme and have a pro bassoon player make judgements such as these without knowing my qualifications, or frankly anything about me other than a phrase I used that was relayed to a BBS. Personal comments about someone on this board who can defend themselves are bad enough but uninformed comments about someone who isn't even aware of the existence of the forum is inexcusible.

Just because we are not perfect does not mean that we should not try. I would like to see how well you do in a public school band class. For some odd reason it is not as easy as it looks.

I would also like to say that sometimes we educators are mislead about an instrument or its capabilities. I was told outright in my brass methods class that you will not run into any tuba other than a BBb in the public school systems unless you have a talented player who purchases their own CC tuba. This, as you all know, is bunk. Still, I could have been mislead by that comment as many probably were. We run into misconceptions at every turn and not everybody knows enough about everything to not hit a wrong path somewhere.

Finally, though this director was mislead at some point in life he/she is doing the best that he/she can in a really tough job. I don't see any of you who were bold enough to say blatantly rude things about a person whom you don't even know showing the courage to go out on a limb and try to do the hard job that this person is doing. Try teaching for a while and see how quick you are to fling insults at a person who is merely doing the best they can with the knowledge they have.

If you last more than a week sporting an attitude like the one in the quote above you might then have room to talk.

Sincerely
Sousie

[Captain Sousie]

By the way, your director was wrong about the key of your tuba being a limitation. Either BBb or CC will work equally well in a band. You could even go so far as to tell him to go on to tubenet and Email me and I will try to explain to him, educator-to-educator, any questions he has regarding the key of a tuba. If you try to explain it yourself, be very careful as he might not take criticism well and could make you miserable for the rest of the year if made grumpy. (just a friendly heads-up from experience) A respectful attitude will go a long way.

Good luck and if it helps, I played in a lot of bands with my CC and the directors didn't even know it until he/she looked at my hand (on the valves, no naughty thoughts there ).

Cheers
Sousie

[Mark N.]

Well you certainly have gotten the users of this board writing. Admittingly I have not read most of the replies to your post, so I apologize if my comments had already been expressed.

Tubas can be a bit confusing to a director. Just try explaining the 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4 thing to a clarinetist some time. ("Does that mean a 6/4 tuba is a 1 1/2 tuba?") I have found that some of the confusion between BBb tubas and CC's to the non-tubist is the lack of understanding that the music itself does not change. As Alan mentioned, a C is a C no matter what. (except for British Band music....but don't worry about that for now, that's not the case in hand.) Some of this confusion comes from comparing the CC tuba to other instruments. Example...if a trumpet player wanted to play a C trumpet in your high school band that would be considered a bit unusual. 99% of the parts in band are written in Bb and the teacher knows the trumpet would have to transpose to play the correct pitches. He/she may think the CC tuba player would have to do the same thing. Even other brass players have a hard time understanding that we don't transpose, we instead use a different set of fingerings. (I love it when trumpet players are convinced we are still transposing!) If you are still adjusting to CC fingerings, it is completely possible that your director thinks you are transposing and is worried that your reading ability will continue to suffer. He needs to understand several things....

So here are my suggestions...
1. POLITELY inform your teacher that nearly every tuba player currently performing in the DC service bands play CC tubas in the concert bands. A performer chooses either BBb or CC by preference and not by whether you are playing in a band or orchestra. A CC tuba is every bit a "band instrument" than a BBb is "band instrument."

2. Make sure he understands that you are going thru a small period of adjustment in learning the CC fingerings. These fingerings are permanent and you are not transposing. All music written for tuba is written for concert pitch so your music never changes. It doesn't matter if it says BBb tuba, Bass, Bass Tuba, or whatever on your part, it is in concert pitch. This is why your fingerings are permanent. So now a C is open and a Bb is 1st valve, and so on. Always!!! After a couple of weeks you will be fluent in the CC fingerings and no more problems.

3. Let him/her know that you are excited about getting your own instrument and you are more committed than ever to play and learn more. Your new instrument is a high motivational tool.

4. Only if necessary, inform your band direcxtor that once you have switched to CC tuba, playing sousaphone really isn't a problem. The BBb fingerings will come back more easily, but this won't be too much of an issue since you will be probably memorizing your music anyway.


Lastly, I have known some very good band directors who make the mistake your director is making. I think we have to start doing a better job as a tuba community in teaching the educator about our instruments. The instrument method classes in colleges usually only deal with BBb tubas and rarely explain the size clarifications of the tuba. I hope seeing what this poster is going through will lead to more of us getting involved in the education of the music educator. (I'm off my soap box now...sorry!)

Good luck in all you do.

Mark

[Captain Sousie]

Amen,

I couldn't have said it better myself Mark.



Sousie

[Alan Baer]

Sousie Wrote:
So, what you are saying is that because I am not very familiar with the bassoon that I should not be teaching band?
I might make some comment about it that is taken to the extreme and have a pro bassoon player make judgements such as these without knowing my qualifications, or frankly anything about me other than a phrase I used that was relayed to a BBS. Personal comments about someone on this board who can defend themselves are bad enough but uninformed comments about someone who isn't even aware of the existence of the forum is inexcusible

Just because we are not perfect does not mean that we should not try. I would like to see how well you do in a public school band class. For some odd reason it is not as easy as it looks.

I would also like to say that sometimes we educators are mislead about an instrument or its capabilities. I was told outright in my brass methods class that you will not run into any tuba other than a BBb in the public school systems unless you have a talented player who purchases their own CC tuba. This, as you all know, is bunk. Still, I could have been mislead by that comment as many probably were. We run into misconceptions at every turn and not everybody knows enough about everything to not hit a wrong path somewhere.

Finally, though this director was mislead at some point in life he/she is doing the best that he/she can in a really tough job. I don't see any of you who were bold enough to say blatantly rude things about a person whom you don't even know showing the courage to go out on a limb and try to do the hard job that this person is doing. Try teaching for a while and see how quick you are to fling insults at a person who is merely doing the best they can with the knowledge they have.

If you last more than a week sporting an attitude like the one in the quote above you might then have room to talk.

Sincerely
Sousie


To respond,
I was an education major in school and realize that the job is thankless and "tough." Now, why did I make the comments that I made? Because being an educator myself,(for the past 11 years in two different Universities) know that what is taught to the students in regards to the low brass, especially the tuba, it’s horrible... There is no time taken with the tuba, in most cases, and this being the foundation of your band, it should not be taken lightly. Whom ever told you that you would never run into anything but a BBb tuba is miserably wrong and should have never told a college student this. The point that I am trying to make is that if you are a Band Director, I am certainly not trying to slam you, I am trying to open your eyes to the fact that the education that you received may not have included ALL the information that you may need for your job. Anyone who THINKS that they're education included everything and is unwilling to keep learning, should not be teaching our young people. I have fought with the administration of both schools that I have taught to increase the awareness of the instrument and well as many other aspects of their degree programs. Please understand that I AM approaching my comments and ideas from the viewpoint of an educator. Any one of my students can tell you that I TRY to exhaust every angle that I can in regards to the tuba and IT'S TEACHING.. especially it's teaching. I am constantly looking for different ways to make it easier and more fun for the student so they will be as excited about subject as I am..
I know my teaching is NOT perfect but I 'm still trying to make it better.

I just hope all of the director s out there are trying to do the same..
Alan Baer
_____________

[Captain Sousie]

Thank you for clarifying Alan.

I do agree that we should never assume that our own knowledge is complete and stop learning. It is the responsibility of every educator to keep learning and to help our students to do the same. I pity the teachers who cannot see this and I hope that they can see the error in their thinking. In this I agree with you wholeheartedly.

My problem is that there were a lot of rude personal comments made by many of the posters and most of them were uninformed and uncalled for. No one should have their worth as an educator judged by what one high school student wrote on an online board. Above all, no one should have to endure that number of personal insults leveled at them behind their back period.

We all know how much fun it is to say how stupid someome is when they can't hear you or retaliate but, as some of the posters should have learned in kindergarten if their teacher was up to everyone here's standards, it is not right.

Professionsalism is a dying art. Despite wrongs, or percieved wrongs, all of us should act in a way that does not stoop to the level of the person who first 'wronged' them. For some odd reason neither "If he has his head that far up his back side he should not be teaching public school" nor any of the previous comments in that manner fit the bill of professionalism or plain common courtesy.


Sincerely,
Sousie


(Sorry to pick on the person I quoted but it was the closest one at hand)

[winston]

.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

I can see where he would think that it may be the wrong horn for jazz band. but for band? as long as you know the right fingerings and can playi it in tune I don't see a problem. as far as jazzband he may hant a more trombone sound is all.

I'm pretty sure Richard Murrow uses a CC tuba with the Dallas Jazz Orchestra.
IMHO

As a young student of jazz/improvising, it is undeniable that the "flat key" fingerings on the C tuba will create additional problems in the process of learning to improvise.

Once you get past a certain level of playing, however, the key of the tuba becomes irrelevent.

[corbasse]

.... Also, perhaps go to the library and find a good orchestration book that explains how the keyed tubas work. This will definitely prove you know what you are telling your teacher, and he or she may be reminded of a discussion that was had in college orchestration class.....!

Be sure to get a recent, American textbook. This because older, European books will only confirm your band teacher in his erronous ways. Around here, tubas ARE treated as transposing instruments. Most of the time.

[Rick Denney]

To those who would seek to correct a mistaken band director: You are, of course, correct (assuming what we heard here is true, which is a rather grand assumption, it seems to me). But there is a problem. You are not talking to the band director. You are talking to a student who is subject to the authority of the band director.

To the student: It is not your job to teach your band director. Repeat: It is not your job to reach your band director. Doing so will cause more trouble for you than you need. You are not in a position to fight this battle, and doing so will ruin your band experience. Don't do it.

There are only two people in the world who can help you with your band director: Your parent (either one will do), and your private teacher. But not in that order. If your private teacher calls the band director and has a chat with him, pro to pro, with the main subject of the discussion being what is good for you, then progress is likely. If your parent calls the band director and has a discussion about what is good for you, then progress is likely.

(You do have a private teacher, don't you? If not, and if you can't afford one, sell the CC tuba, buy a BBb for half the price, and spend the rest on lessons with a good pro. You'll go much further playing a BBb well than a CC poorly.)

Of course, what is good for you may not be what you want. And in the end, the band director is your teacher and has authority in the classroom, even if you disagree with him, and even if he is wrong. If, after those two discussions, you find him unwilling to change his mind, either conform cheerfully or leave the band program. Do not be a poison in the band room, no matter how it turns out--you'll end up the one poisoned.

Mr. Baer is a top pro, but he is still subject to the sometimes ignorant whims of conductors who can make his life hell if he doesn't treat them with the proper respect. Arnold Jacobs played, for part of a season, a very small Dehmal F tuba that he despised, because his conductor requested it. He went back to his York because in the end it worked better, and his conductor came around. There is not a professional tuba player in any band or orchestra who has not had to conform to what he thought was poor direction. It's part of life, and now is not too soon to get used to it.

Remember, your teacher is your boss while you are in the classroom. You are required to treat him with respect, even if he is wrong. If you don't do so, you will for sure lose this argument, and you will lose more besides.

Rick "who hopes it is not too late" Denney

[Leland]

Might be too late for this idea, but...

Whenever I bring my tuba to a new group, the other players always (yes, ALWAYS) say, "That's a CC tuba, isn't it?" They ask this even after hearing me play.

I have to dash their hopes by telling them that it's a BBb.

My point? If you're playing well enough, nobody would know the difference.

Maybe you can get significantly better over Christmas break, and when you come back, just tell your director that you traded the CC for a BBb that just happened to be built the same way. Some manufacturers have nearly-identical BBb and CC tubas, after all.

But that's just being sneaky.

[tubathig]

I suppose that is why a great deal of college bands use CC tubas. Your band director needs to go back to playing flute.

[Rick Denney]

I reviewed my own earlier comments and don't find them to be inappropriate. I will admit to a local bias that I have involving band director ignorance...

...and corruption.

I'm not disagreeing at all with what you say. My point is to say that a student is not in the position to fight this battle, and doing so will always punish the student. "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's..." The band director, whether competent or corrupt, is still in authority in the band room.

The worst possible outcome here is for the student to go into the band director's office and say, "All my tuba-playing friends think you are an idiot who should go back to playing clarinet in college, and some even suspect that you are on the take with the local music store. I demand that you let me play my new tuba!" The result of that challenge, and rightly so, would be the expulsion of that student from the band program, were I the band director. At best, the student would be marked as a troublemaker and would be punished, at the very least by being marginalized. And the more corrupt the BD, the worse it would be.

It is not the student's job to enforce good understanding and ethics on the part of the band director. The student needs to recruit adult and professional help in that endeavor.

Most people in this evil world are subject to corrupt and ignorant masters at one time or another. Part of growing up is learning how to deal with it in ways not self-destructive. We should be careful in the advice we give, even on this free forum--somebody might take us seriously and get themselves in trouble.

Rick "not defending bad band directors, but having the student's best interests in mind" Denney