Is a CC horn Wrong??

[runelk]

I'm pretty sure that all tuba players in the Washington, DC military bands play CC tubas. I know that the AF Band tuba players (9 tubists) all play CC.

Albert Islas
U.S. Air Force Band
Washington, DC

[Paul S]

well if your not getting the right sound in jazz band they may be because that you REALLY should be playing bass trombone. when i joined jazz i wanted to do jazz tuba but my band director told me if i wanted to do jazz i would have to learn bass trombone, because most the parts were originally written for it. i would suggest asking your band director if theres a bass trombone you can use. its a good skill to have, because if you choose to play in one of the smaller symphanies. you'll be playing bass trombone. the valve to slide change is wierd, but a good learning experience

I am one of those who like the German use of the F/BBb tuba combo for orchestra but I do love the sound of a good CC tuba and especially in Jazz.

Anyone who feels there is no place for tuba, and CC tuba in particular, in Jazz should head to THE MODERN JAZZ TUBA PROJECT at http://www.mjtproject.com/ and be prepared to change their opinion!

They have some sound files on the site at: http://webpages.charter.net/mjtproject/soundfiles.html

After that, head to Amazon or your nearest retailer and get their new album "FAVORITE THINGS" immediately. It is a wonderful CD to have.

[Lew]

I find htis the easiest way to explain different tubas.

on a BBb tuba concert F is open. Now on a CC tuba you have to put down 1 valve to hit concert F. And that pitch is a concert F.

understand?

The reason you press down 1st on a CC is because its open note is a concert G. There for you hold 1st to move the note to a concert F.

I don't know exactly why, but tubas dont change key when you get a different tuba. Their fingering patterns change.

So on a F tuba, open is F but the fingering pattern is (way) different.

Of course different tubas "change keys." A CC tuba has a CC as its fundamental while a BBb has BBb, an F F, etc. The fingering pattern is exactly the same starting from the fundamental, i. e. a Bb scale (starting from the Bb below the staff) on a BBb would be 0, 1+3 (or 4), 1+2 (or 3), 1, 0, 1+2 (or 3), 2, 0. A C scale starting from the C above that Bb would have the exact same fingering pattern on a CC tuba, as would an Eb scale starting from the Eb below the staff on an Eb tuba. Other scales follow the same pattern on each tuba in their relative positions.

What I believe you are referring to as the keys not changing is the fact that bass clef music is not transposed. That means that what you see is in concert pitch so to play it on an instrument in a different key you have to use the fingerings for the concert pitch. This is in contrast to the music for most other instruments, and for most instruments in brass bands, where the music is written so that the fundamental pitch of the horn is seen as a C. In brass band music therefore the Eb and Bb tuba players would be using the same fingerings for the notes shown in the same position on the page. The C would sound as an Eb on the Eb tuba and a BBb on a BBb tuba though.

[Chuck(G)]

If your Dad told you that operating an automobile while wearing tennis shoes causes wrecks, that statement (very arguably) would be blatantly incorrect.

What a moroon! Everyone knows that wearing a hat causes wrecks.

[tubaman5150]

I really don't think that it is a good idea to encourage any high school student to disrespect his/her teacher. There is enough of that in society already.

No offense, but nobody is really doing that. It certainly wasn't my intent.
Besides, its the right of every student to vent about their teachers after class is over.

My point is that everyone was giving very logical reasons for something that was done out of ignorance. It certainly is possible that since the director didn't hear what he wanted out of tuba and he made a spurious correlation about the tuba's key.
A band director has one of the toughest, most underpaid, and most impacting jobs out there. They have to be a musician, and educator, and a full time disciplinarian. I feel it is not a job for the ill-informed and under-educated. I'm not saying this man is like that, but an educator's job should have zero percent conjecture.
The reason for this is that most students take their band director's word as gospel. Its a big responsibility to be correct. Especially when you tell some kid that just dropped a wad of money on a CC tuba that he can't use it in band. How do you think the parents would feel about that?

Please no flames, folks. These are only my opnions based on my experiences as an educator and a student.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Happy TubaThanksgiving®

:-)

[tubaman5150]

The band directors (at least in my city) of the few good-sounding bands readily admit to ignorance. How can any one person know "everything"? Rather than the shoot-from-the-hip opinions/comments that (apparently) this young person's band director offered regarding the new CC tuba, a more thoughtful band director would have withheld comment, called some folks, and asked questions. We get a few "tuba" questions phoned into the store, as well as "double reed" questions...and sometimes (rather than be ignorant "know-it-alls" ourselves) we admit that we don't know the answers to their questions any better than they know themselves, and defer to others.

I think we're on the same wavelength here. There are so many resources that one can consult to get the right answers to avoid conjecture (aka B.S.). One person can't know "everything", but has to be smart enough to keep learning.
Isn't it funny how ignorance and overconfidence in one's intelligence often come in the same package.

BTW - I like the idea of "TubaThanksgiving®". Sounds like a bunch of turkeys that play the tuba and then eat turkey.
Now all I need is for the tryptophan to kick in and lull me off the computer and onto the couch.

[Biggs]

tuba4sissies wrote:
Lew, yeah i thought about that. From what ive seen its just lower ntoes for the keyed tuba that use different fingerings.


What are you on about man!?

It could just be me but whenever you post they never seem to make any sense. Sorry if this seems harsh!

You may be "musically gifted" but I'd stick to asking questions for now.

Flame-on

Thank you, thank you, thank you for finally saying it!

[ai698]

Since I play in a community band, a National Guard band, a jazz ensemble, does that mean I have to sell my CC tubas and my F and get a BBb? I haven't played in an orchestra since 1989.

[Tubadork]

You can also tell your BD that ALL of the tuba players in ALL of the premiere Military bands use CC tubas and I only know of one Commander in the Army Band system who insists that the tubas play BBb tuba (Col. Palmetere {sp} He's in Heildleberg, Germany now and I've heard rumours that he may be going to TUSAB in DC. That will be a funny 1st rehersal when he tells them that they can't play CC).
Bill Pritchard
honking on CC in EUSA band

[JB]

simma down...

[JB]

simma

How do you write it in English??

[Stefan]

I think that it is important to reiterate to the original poster that no one person can know everything about every subject. Your band director may have been at the top of his class in college. Perhaps his brass class did not have tuba in it (mine didn't). There could be any number of reasons why he doesn't know about this. You have learned by now that a CC tuba can be played in a concert band. The question is what are you going to do now. His only fault in this situation was not making sure about his facts. Doesn't make him a bad person and he doesn't deserve any disrespect from a student. If your parents want to take it up with him, that's a different story. Your parents are in a better position to question him - although they ought to do it with respect as well.

Of course, the other comments about him trying to "soften the blow" could be legit too. These days, teachers have the "don't hurt their feelings" mantra rammed down their throats. But I don't know - maybe this isn't the case.

If I were you, I would just continue bringing your C to school. You bought the tuba and it's too hard to go back and forth between fingerings at this stage. Maybe he will forget about it - especially if you play well. But if he says something again, explain the problem with your parents and show them this thread. I just hope you don't go to your teacher to "correct him". Yes, it's OK to disagree with your teacher. And you can express this to him. But it should be done right.

Stefan Antwarg

[dopey]

Correct me if im wrong(which I may very well be)

But if your CC has a 5th valve, and is capable, can you not tune it so you may depress it to lower the pitch of the horn to Bb and play BBb fingerings?

if the reason the director is making these statements is because you haven't had the C horn long and are still going through the transition. This may allow you to continue to play it in concert band. Ofcourse dont' make this a habbit, I would play CC fingering but if I saw one I couldn't remember right quick, just pop 5th and the Bb fingering down...

Just a suggestion...

Jacob"who would hate to be switching to CC so close to our christmas concert"

[Steve Inman]

Ok. sorry for me not being as aged or as knowledged as you. But, what i meant(and from what ive see on fingering charts) is that on the lower notes of different keys(F, Eb, CC and BBb if you didn't know that)are fingered differently. But when you get medium to high on the staff, they become about the same. jesus christ. i meant im musically talented for a 14 year old, not a 41 year old.

it's thanks giving for freakin' christ's sake. simma down. eat some turkey and drink some wine.

1. There is a higher probability of a high note happening to have the same fingering on different keyed tubas than a low note. You are correct.
2. Technically, this is a convenient "accident". But it can help players who own tubas in two different keys to switch back and forth more easily.
3. This isn't true in my case -- Eb and CC -- unless I pretent the tuba music is in treble clef when playing the Eb, and then use the CC fingerings. But then I may as well just learn the bass clef notes anyway.
4. Since your previous post wasn't very precise, it led to an unfortunate reply which was lacking in diplomacy. That was unfortunate.
5. If you really do care about proper BBS behavior "for Christ's sake", then I would appreciate it if you didn't use His name in the manner that you did in the quote above.

Many thanks,

[MartyNeilan]

jesus christ....
it's thanks giving for freakin' christ's sake

If you want to blaspheme, young man, please take it somewhere else.

FWIW, it requires far more talent to play one or two instruments well than many instruments poorly.
There are world class symphony players and university professors on this board (I confess to being neither), so you may want to consider changing your signature. THEY are musically talented, and they don't usually blaspheme either.

[Alan Baer]

Don't listen to a word that this guy is saying...
(he's probably is a woodwind picker anyway)
If he has his head that far up his back side he should not be teaching public school... You'll be shooting yourself in the foot by picking up the BBb for the band. You will lack clarity and with that, the band will have a tougher time locking onto the the intonation of the low voice.( yes I know all you BBb guys are grumbling) There are other reasons that I won't go into at this time.. ALSO, tuba parts are non transposing... Written in C. if you see a C, and you play a C, that's what comes out the bell..
In short, tell this guy to take a hike....
It's examples like this (bad teaching) that hold SO many tubist back. You have a player that has purchased an instrument, made a commitment to the horn on one hand. In the other you have a teacher who knows nothing but what he learned in 1 weeks time or less in class brass telling him the wrong thing to do.. I think I've made my point....
Don't let a music teachers inadequacies in teaching determine your road to musicianship or playing.
Alan Baer

[hurricane_harry]

well if your not getting the right sound in jazz band they may be because that you REALLY should be playing bass trombone. when i joined jazz i wanted to do jazz tuba but my band director told me if i wanted to do jazz i would have to learn bass trombone, because most the parts were originally written for it. i would suggest asking your band director if theres a bass trombone you can use. its a good skill to have, because if you choose to play in one of the smaller symphanies. you'll be playing bass trombone. the valve to slide change is wierd, but a good learning experience

I am one of those who like the German use of the F/BBb tuba combo for orchestra but I do love the sound of a good CC tuba and especially in Jazz.

Anyone who feels there is no place for tuba, and CC tuba in particular, in Jazz should head to THE MODERN JAZZ TUBA PROJECT at http://www.mjtproject.com/ and be prepared to change their opinion!

They have some sound files on the site at: http://webpages.charter.net/mjtproject/soundfiles.html

After that, head to Amazon or your nearest retailer and get their new album "FAVORITE THINGS" immediately. It is a wonderful CD to have.

well, with my band director in partiular, if we play something in jazz, were gonna try as hard as we can to play the original charts, and lets face it, coltrane didn't play with arnold jacobs, although jazz tuba does kick butt (tubas from hell, one of my favorite jazz albums), most charts don't have tuba parts. if the piece calls for a tuba, i'll be playing my BBb 3/4 king, and if it calls for bass trombone i'll be playing my yamaha double triger semiopen wrap bass trombone. i think hes trying to get me ready for the "real world" of music, cause i have seen many big bands where a guy will play bass bone for a few sets then break out a CC tuba for a few more. i am yet to see (although im shure they exist, if only in minority) a jazz ensemble with a tuba player that only plays tuba.

[Captain Sousie]

Don't listen to a word that this guy is saying...
(he's probably is a woodwind picker anyway)
If he has his head that far up his back side he should not be teaching public school... You'll be shooting yourself in the foot by picking up the BBb for the band. You will lack clarity and with that, the band will have a tougher time locking onto the the intonation of the low voice.( yes I know all you BBb guys are grumbling) There are other reasons that I won't go into at this time.. ALSO, tuba parts are non transposing... Written in C. if you see a C, and you play a C, that's what comes out the bell..
In short, tell this guy to take a hike....
It's examples like this (bad teaching) that hold SO many tubist back. You have a player that has purchased an instrument, made a commitment to the horn on one hand. In the other you have a teacher who knows nothing but what he learned in 1 weeks time or less in class brass telling him the wrong thing to do.. I think I've made my point....
Don't let a music teachers inadequacies in teaching determine your road to musicianship or playing.
Alan Baer

So, what you are saying is that because I am not very familiar with the bassoon that I should not be teaching band? I might make some comment about it that is taken to the extreme and have a pro bassoon player make judgements such as these without knowing my qualifications, or frankly anything about me other than a phrase I used that was relayed to a BBS. Personal comments about someone on this board who can defend themselves are bad enough but uninformed comments about someone who isn't even aware of the existence of the forum is inexcusible.

Just because we are not perfect does not mean that we should not try. I would like to see how well you do in a public school band class. For some odd reason it is not as easy as it looks.

I would also like to say that sometimes we educators are mislead about an instrument or its capabilities. I was told outright in my brass methods class that you will not run into any tuba other than a BBb in the public school systems unless you have a talented player who purchases their own CC tuba. This, as you all know, is bunk. Still, I could have been mislead by that comment as many probably were. We run into misconceptions at every turn and not everybody knows enough about everything to not hit a wrong path somewhere.

Finally, though this director was mislead at some point in life he/she is doing the best that he/she can in a really tough job. I don't see any of you who were bold enough to say blatantly rude things about a person whom you don't even know showing the courage to go out on a limb and try to do the hard job that this person is doing. Try teaching for a while and see how quick you are to fling insults at a person who is merely doing the best they can with the knowledge they have.

If you last more than a week sporting an attitude like the one in the quote above you might then have room to talk.

Sincerely
Sousie

[Captain Sousie]

By the way, your director was wrong about the key of your tuba being a limitation. Either BBb or CC will work equally well in a band. You could even go so far as to tell him to go on to tubenet and Email me and I will try to explain to him, educator-to-educator, any questions he has regarding the key of a tuba. If you try to explain it yourself, be very careful as he might not take criticism well and could make you miserable for the rest of the year if made grumpy. (just a friendly heads-up from experience) A respectful attitude will go a long way.

Good luck and if it helps, I played in a lot of bands with my CC and the directors didn't even know it until he/she looked at my hand (on the valves, no naughty thoughts there ).

Cheers
Sousie