What Happened To "MADE IN THE USA"?

[TUBAD83]

Many of us are old enough to remember when the label MADE IN THE USA meant something--products produced here were of high quality and excellent workmanship. The label was respected here and around the globe. When I was a kid, just about everything in our home was made in the USA--today that is no longer the case. This past July in New Orleans, I had the opportunity and pleasure to participate in the National Community Band concert. Out of a section of 8 tubists, not one had a tuba that was made in the USA. Once there were a number of companies in this country who made fine quality tubas--today there is only one and it focuses its marketing on public schools basically ceding the "high-end" market to Europe and Japan. So what happened and why did this happen? Don't get me wrong--I'm not bashing other countries here--I just want to know why my own country has apparently lost the ability to produce high quality tubas today.

[MartyNeilan]

Well....
Many of the best mouthpieces are made in the USA, including plenty of innovation (stainless, coatings, bronze core, lexan). Too many names to list - wouldn't want to offend anyone.
Many of the best trombones are made in the USA - Shires and Edwards - as well as Bach and Conn which are still used by many pros. The Getzen line is also highly regarded and pro played along with its more elite brother.
And then there's Kanstul. The trombones are popular among commercial players on the left coast, and their marching brass is well regarded. They have a number of tuba models geared towards marching but are continuing to expand their concert models.

[sailn2ba]

You folks are all right on!
Good news about the mouthpieces!
I have recently spent nearly 2 years shopping for a new tuba and the US didn’t have an entry. . . I briefly considered a couple of old Conns with great sound, but they’re tanks, and I’m getting old.
As for automobiles, the “Made in USA” hasn’t been a point of pride for 50 years! I personally think it started with the salesmen who had no motivation to back up their claims or warranty obligations in the face of manufacturing laxity.
As for photography, Kodak booted their 1970s lead in CCD devices (They manufactured the chips for Nikon’s initial models.) and competed hotly for next year’s sales of gelatin film instead. . . Short term consideration of stock price.
Anyhow, One thing I noticed in Europe in the 1990s, was that they were very picky about price AND quality. They were purchasing US electronics, but not automobiles, kitchen appliances, etc. Mostly, they were willing to pay a bit extra for items made in their own country. AND, they were willing and proud to pay the true cost for gasoline.

[SplatterTone]

What Bloke said.

[oedipoes]

15% Social Security...FICA...lawyers...unions...property taxes...business & equipment taxes...25% federal taxation of profits...liability insurance...OSHA...

bad reason Bloke, same thing on this side of the big water...

[tubashaman2]

.

[peter birch]

same thing that happened to made in England, it is now made in China (much cheaper)

[Wyvern]

same thing that happened to made in England, it is now made in China (much cheaper)

Very true Peter! Nine out of every ten things in the shops seem to be "Made in China". No doubt that China is now factory to the world, with Germany (so far) just about hanging onto the high-end market.

[eupher61]

aside from Besson, Yamaha, and VMI, what makers of arguabl top-quality tubas make a full line of instruments of equal quality and reknown?
The euph/tuba market at the pro level is reasonably tiny compared to trumpets, woodwinds, percussion, trombones. Thete's little financial reward. Corporate America doesn't like us.

[imperialbari]

bloke you haven’t become the least more manageable from becoming rural.

You think your main legacy is your political thinking. This is not congruent with facts.

You say you have no hobbies. This is not congruent with facts. At least 3 times you have taken production time out of your business to design and make unique instruments for your own playing (York and Buescher helicons, Conn plastophone). Of course you make money from playing, but these instruments were brought to a level of show-off way beyond the level of professional craftsman’s pride and way beyond the needs for your playing. Why? Because you know and because you love what you do. And the knowledge and love comes from being a high level musician with an understanding of music far beyond pushing buttons.

That understanding of the brass making trade will not be bestowed on Chinese craftsmen for decades, maybe centuries, to come.

Klaus

[chronolith]

For my part it seems to be a history lesson, at least with the horn.

While the USA bears quite a lot of pride for the things we have invented and given the world (and one or two things the world did not really need - like nuclear fission and McDonalds), we did not invent the tuba. Many of the best instruments you can get come from Europe because they gave us the tuba originally, and quite a lot of the music that a tuba can play! Even more foreign to some of the American business ideals is that many of those same companies in operation for many many years are still family owned and operated.

What we as Americans excel at in terms of getting tubas is business strategy. Some companies that we know and love have figured it out that it is more cost effective (read: easier) to act as a distributor of foreign instruments than to go and bother reinventing the wheel, so to speak. Those folks over in Germany have been doing this for a very long time, why mess with it? So with the availability of foreign horns, you have have competition domestically with US manufacturers. We as players have LOTS of choices.

There is also brand name mystique. It is a complete load of garbage but I sense it is still very prevalent among our ranks. We sometimes pretend that playing an expensive European import horn somehow speaks to our ability and skills as players. It is not true of course, but we as musicians do have egos to contend with (and hopefully eventually defeat). Whether we admit it or not, it is part of the decision making process. We also sometimes make the mistake of looking at the horns that our teachers and heroes play, and think that getting a similar horn will make us sound like them. It is short sighted, but again it is a factor.

Another thing to consider is the lifetime of our instruments. I dare say that I will be playing the same instrument for my next 2 or 3 car purchases. There is not really the turnover of instruments out there to really build momentum for a domestic development renaissance that will be easily detected. Add to that the fact that we have so many master repair technicians available to us and the lifespan of our horns gets very long indeed. I am willing to bet there are not a few players out there who are playing horns older than they are! Sadly not the case with me.

I am heartened by what I have seen in recent years though. It is no longer impossible to get a unique and beautiful sounding make and model of horn from here on our shores. We do make some truly fine instruments here nowadays. The trends however are very long so you may not see the true American tuba quality bonanza for decades to come.

[oedipoes]

15% Social Security...FICA...lawyers...unions...property taxes...business & equipment taxes...25% federal taxation of profits...liability insurance...OSHA...

bad reason Bloke, same thing on this side of the big water...

Though the people still live in a repressive Communist regime (towards which we are heading in the U.S.), the Chinese government has - bit-by-bit been offering workers, engineers, and shop managers enough "carrots" to encourage production.

This is not a political forum, but highlighted peace of text above made me smile...
If you are referring to your current president, keep in mind that in most European countries many of his ideas would be considered 'conservative' or 'republican'. Now you may smile.
That's all I have to say about that in public. (don't want Sean to kick me out...)
I'll stick to what we share, the love for some instrument called "tuba" !

Anyhow, "made in America" only works for those instruments that Europeans associate with America.
Sousaphones, marching brass, jazz instruments, ...
For the rest, let us have some chauvenism (is that correct English?) and buy 'handmade in Europe'.
If I ever need a sousaphone, made in the US it will be.

Wim

[TUBAD83]

same thing that happened to made in England, it is now made in China (much cheaper)

That is very true--It has become more difficult to find products imported from the UK that were actually made there. Now if y'all start outsourcing the Waterford crystal and the mince pies, I'm on the next flight to Gatwick (British Airways Business Class, of course)

JJ

[oedipoes]

I wonder what Europeans could actually accomplish were they allowed to (if they chose to do so) put in 15-hour days and keep/reinvest more of the money they earn...??

hey psst, we do, but don't tell that to my tax administration

Wim

[TUBAD83]

So why no high quality American tubas? (Conn 5XJ series exempt) American makers never made that many factory CC tubas, and with the explosion of collegiate study in tuba playing from the 1950's on, and with people saying, "Oh, if you want to be a professional, you have to play CC tuba." So if you wanted a new CC tuba, you bought something German/Swiss/etc. So the CC tuba market went to Europe, so the American makers dropped the CC tubas from the catalog and targeted the school programs.

Even now, we don't seem to want an American made CC tuba. The great Getzen CC tuba is long gone from the catalog, and I suspect the Conn 5XJ will be gone in less than ten years. Because we don't buy them, the makers don't have the ability to make these tubas to the level of quality we demand. So we buy new European/Japanese tubas, or used European tubas, or a classic American BBb and then send it to a craft builder to turn into the American CC we all WISH we could buy off the shelf, but can not.

No (or few) high quality American CC tubas is simply our own fault, and no one else.
RC

RC you have pointed out a glaring and sad fact--in a country with probably the biggest CC tuba market anywhere, it is unwilling/unable to produce a competitive high quality CC (and lets be honest--today's Conn 56J is not really a match for the top CC horns made in Europe, so I agree that eventually it will go away).

And the decent into mediocrity continues.

JJ

[Tuba Guy]

I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) that America used to be a major BBb country. Some of our Bb's are the best around (Conn 20K...no one else does a sousaphone quite as popular...the old Yorks, Martins, Conns, Getzens). The only American made CC that I can think of that I really like is the CB50, which was modeled after a York...
Of course, the old American tubas are without a doubt my complete favorites...last night I did a quintet rehearsal on my 1900's BBb Martin, and we've never sounded better (of course, it's in low pitch, so I can't play it with any other group, but that is an incredible tuba). I think production quality has just gone down since those early 20th century horns.

[Tom]

The only American made CC that I can think of that I really like is the CB50, which was modeled after a York...

American style tubas and marketed by an American company, but that's about where the American connection ends.

I have it on good authority that MW (or the JA Musik company) in Germany manufactured all of the parts for these and that valve sets were also sourced from Europe. I have also been told that some of them were assembled in the United States, but that many came completely assembled from Germany with either "Canadian Brass" or "Getzen" engraved on the bell. My sources absolutely insisted that Getzen did absolutely no manufacturing of the parts.

[Donn]

What originally made America exceptional is that (unlike Europe and the rest of the world) the document that defines our nation specifically protected individuals' freedom from regimentation and from tyrants...That document, sadly, is now obviously only "historical" as we have become just like the run-of-the-mill European countries with little chances for more than run-of-the-mill lives.

We're teetering on the edge of 3rd world, we should be so lucky as to meet European standards, population wide. But our tubas are made there, not here - must be a more favorable economic environment there, without our onerous Social Security, unions, taxes, insurance and safety standards. Or, maybe it never had anything to do with that.

[tofu]

What originally made America exceptional is that (unlike Europe and the rest of the world) the document that defines our nation specifically protected individuals' freedom from regimentation and from tyrants...That document, sadly, is now obviously only "historical" as we have become just like the run-of-the-mill European countries with little chances for more than run-of-the-mill lives.

We're teetering on the edge of 3rd world, we should be so lucky as to meet European standards, population wide. But our tubas are made there, not here - must be a more favorable economic environment there, without our onerous Social Security, unions, taxes, insurance and safety standards. Or, maybe it never had anything to do with that.

I'm guessing you are not running your own business with employees. It used to be you had a great/better idea to start a business,worked hard and long, provided a great service/product for customers and were able to take care of your employees. Now everytime you turn around there is a new mandate. It is hard enough for large businesses to not only stay abreast of ever changing government regulations, edicts, mandates, laws - much less pay for it all. For businesses with 500 or less employees it is near impossible. Part of the problem is that very few congressmen come from the ranks of business. Most of them are lawyers who never ran a business and never had employees that the business had to serve nor have they dealt with getting/retaining customers or facing competition from overseas places that don't have OSHA/EPA/SSA etc. It is incredibly costly and you either eat that cost or try to pass it on to your customers. Well customers are loyal to some extent, but at some point (especially when they themselves are squeezed) they go with the overseas product even if it is not as good but good enough to do whatever they need it to do. I understand that they need to look out for themselves first. So now as a company you have a choice - try as hard as you can to move your product up the food chain, lower costs with more capital equipment, wring more efficiencies out of the business or fold up shop or source your stuff overseas as well. Most of these options are not good for your employees or the prospect of adding employees, but you are not running a charity and you have to find a way to get a real return on your capital. Personally I think it is a huge error in thinking if we in the USA think you can have a great successful country long term without a large quality manufacturing base. Not knocking insurance salesmen or real estate agents, but we all can't just sell insurance and houses to each other. The government likes to talk about how small business is the driver of job creation in the country - and yet they never cease at throwing roadblocks in the way.

[Rick Denney]

I suspect there probably were German tuba players sitting around wondering why all the good tubas are being made in America, and only those student-grade rotary things are still made in Germany, maybe 75 years ago.

Price must exceed cost by an amount worthy of investment before a business can succeed. That formula hasn't been favorable for American tuba manufacturers for a long time. Many American industries have thus concentrated on the high end, where prices can support costs. Germany is the same. And it's now happening in Japan, too, as their work force expects more and more compensation for their efforts. Nobody has yet come up with a business model for making tubas in the U.S. that really works, though Kanstul and Conn/King are trying (maybe half-heartedly) from their respective directions.

Trombones have a more favorable cost model than do tubas. A tuba with the same price/cost ratio as, say, an Edwards trombone would probably have a price tag of $50,000. Are you willing to pay it? There's your answer.

Rick "lots of things are still made in the U.S. that can be priced above costs by a workable margin" Denney