bloke wrote: I really wonder if the "school band" thing will last much longer in America. Can we talk...?? Large cities in America are becoming more "black". Certainly there are some black schools (high school and university) that REALLY get into wind instrument playing and make it into something quite their own...but in many schools in urban and mostly-black areas are found band rooms where a teacher presides over a handful of mostly-disinterested students.
First of all, cities are getting more "brown" and have you been to many of the "mostly-black" areas around the country, Joe?? What are you basing this on? The black areas I've been to the opposite is true. In fact, the Houston Independent School District (which is mostly black) is expanding its music program in all the schools (I have recently spoken with a couple of new band directors and they are pretty excited about it). Yes Memphis, Detroit, DC are very violent cities, but they are NOT the rule...these are the WORST cities because the city government is corrupt (Houston went through the same thing in the 70s--we had to get rid of the corruption in city hall and in the police department before things turned around). Please let go of the notion that because there is a large number of "blacks" or "browns" in a one area, its all going to hell. That IS "race crap".
One more thing--the idea of just blaming unions, lawyers, OSHA, social security, welfare, the tooth fairy for all the ills of the country is ridiculous. If good ole "Corporate America" had its way, the VAST majority of us would be making $1.37 an hour 90 hours a week and the only vacation we would get is when (not IF)we would be FIRED for having the unmitigated gall of getting SICK.
JJ "A black man who has NOT robbed, raped, jacked, shot, or been arrested...and there are MANY MANY more like ME, Thank You"
Jerry Johnson
Wessex Kaiser BBb aka "Willie"
Wessex Luzern BBb aka "Otto"
Lone Star Symphonic Band
The Prevailing Winds
tofu wrote:
I'm guessing you are not running your own business with employees. It used to be
(... etc., cue lament.)
No, not running my own business, but at least able to focus on the point (specifically oedipoes' point several posts back): Europe's godless communism, trade unions etc. haven't stamped out all its tuba manufacturers. Ergo, our own barely greater than 3rd world standards didn't make it impossible to produce tubas here.
Bloke later seems to get down to it - the big US instrument makers had neither the talent nor the inclination to make much of anything but mass market goods. Since that mass market is highly price sensitive and tolerant of 3rd world manufacturing quality, most of it went to the Far East. We can and do produce instruments in the US, but not like we did.
Personally, I am as conscientious as anyone in turning things over and looking to see where they're made, rarely am forced to buy anything made in China, but I would love to have another Italian tuba. It's the difference between a despotic, hostile country with 3rd world standard of living, vs. a country where they speak a foreign language, wave a different colored flag and eat better food. If there are plenty of good tubas coming out of Europe, that's good enough for me.
Why spend about $7500 on a Conn 5XJ or similar, when you can get a higher quality German or Swiss instrument (Willson) for not significantly more. Also, it seems like American horns lose their value quicker from for sale prices and such. I might be wrong on that, but at the time I got my Miraphone 1291, I was considering a Conn 56J, and I got my Miraphone, a better fit for me, for cheaper than a Conn....
Ouch!
I am more than satisfied with my lower quality Conn 56J. Sound, intonation, workmanship. I understand the concept of "to each his own", but I never once thought that I selected a lower quality instrument. In my search I played a lot of horns, and even had the opportunity to spend some quality time with some of the higher quality German instruments.
Anyway I'm happy with he one I picked, and the "Made in the USA" part is a huge bonus as well.
bloke wrote:Except for me and a part-time guy who plays trombone, I play in a 7-9 piece brass band of [good then: brown] guys who live in New Orleans and Memphis.
bloke "Who feels no contempt towards 'the man'...perhaps because I've never asked 'the man' for a j.o.b."
________________________________________________________________________ Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that the "current acceptable term" for people-other-than-Negroes to use to refer to members of the Negro race changes - seemingly - just about as fast as we grow accustomed to the term we are instructed to use? Particularly if you are at least forty years old, stop for just a moment and write down on a piece of paper all of the terms that have been the "p.c." labels assigned to American Negroes since you were born.
You misunderstood my use of the term "brown"---I was referring to Hispanics--the largest minority in the country now and, eventually, they will be the majority racial group in the US. Personally I'm not of fan of any of these racial labels, but unfortunately we will have to deal with them for the time being.
As for the rest, I will say I have no "contempt" towards "the man" (I do believe that term died in the 80's) but having worked in corporate America for almost 20 years, I do have a very good idea of what its all about. Joe, I think you're the type of person who likes to "push buttons"--make, shall we say "interesting" comments and see what happens--whether you actually believe what you put out--well only you can answer that. It makes for good entertainment, I'm sure.
JJ "I always find it interesting that the very people who complain the most about how bad things are and how evil the government is someway somehow have done well"
Last edited by TUBAD83 on Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jerry Johnson
Wessex Kaiser BBb aka "Willie"
Wessex Luzern BBb aka "Otto"
Lone Star Symphonic Band
The Prevailing Winds
What keeps a corporation from paying $1.37 an hour? They need skilled workers and the plant down the street is willing to pay $1.45 an hour for them. So, to attract them, they pay $1.55. Then the plant down the street offers $1.65. That proceeds until one can go no further, or the supply of skilled workers increases (as it surely will if prices for them are high enough), so that both plants are adequately staffed. Why do corporations offer health insurance? Because wages were frozen (both during and following WWII and during the early 70's), and the only way they could attract a skilled workforce was by offering better benefits--in other words--it was a response to a government-induced market distortion.
High-end production is still done in the U.S., where the price model for the quality exceeds the costs sufficiently. The best bicycles in the world are made in the U.S. The best camera lenses likewise (e.g., Coastal Optical Company), and the optics that are really important--the stuff used to make microchips--is still well-represented by U.S. manufacturers. The chips themselves may be made elsewhere, of course. The world's off-shore drilling rigs are still frequently designed and produced in the U.S., and the design work is done right there in Houston, Jerry. There are other examples, but these seem diverse enough to make the point.
I lived in Houston in the 70's (and the 60's, and the 50's--part of them--and my parents still live there). Jerry, I don't remember the corruption of which you speak with regard to law enforcement or racial tensions, though I do remember some of the same high-profile cases where facts were generally overwhelmed by the political reaction. I personally know the folks who were doing traffic engineering in City Hall at the time, and I know the folks doing it now, and the expertise was better in the earlier period, with considerable professionalism and without any patronage politics. (Houston was and still is quite different than many places in the lack of patronage politics, but it's getting worse these days not better). I do remember the corruption in the city's purchasing department in the 70's and before. I would be unwilling to believe that corruption has any racial component. There is considerable corruption in hiring practices in Washington, DC, and I have many first-hand anecdotes ready to hand suggesting a racial component. Baltimore, too, though to a lesser extent. I knew the transportation and planning folks at the county and state levels in the Memphis area a few years ago, and I know some folks at the city level. Those folks have all moved on for one reason or another, but I can't say that what I personally know to be true undermines much of what Joe is suggesting.
The problem with corporations, especially those that are publicly held (which includes all the big ones), is they they are held to a standard of profitability that is unrealistic. And this standard is reflected in widespread stock ownership by people who are naive about business cycles, and by business-school grads who feed those expectations for their personal gain. For example, we currently have a down cycle, and a time when companies should hunker down and preserve their core capabilities. They should turn their profits back into the business to do so, and not give a rat's behind about the effect that doing so might have on the price of the stock. They should be able to sell this plan to their boards, and the boards should be wise enough to allow it. That way, they can emerge from the recession with their core capabilities intact, and be positioned for greater profitability when the cycle swings back to the upside, which it always does.
But that's not what I see. I see corporations dumping their core capabilities, with the notion that they can bring them back when needed, so that they can maintain what are presently unrealistic growth and profitability goals even during a contraction. Their focus is quarter-by-quarter profitability, not long-term stability and growth. That has been true largely since the Harvard Business School model began dominating corporate board rooms, which spelled the demise of corporations being run by the technical experts who founded them or who made them profitable. Only in the computer biz do we see corporations being run by their technical leaders, and last month HP bought EDS, and last week Dell bought Perot. The companies enhancing their core capabilities during a down cycle are the ones who are thinking strategically, because they are getting those capabilities for cheap. Buy low, sell high. The HBS grads in charge of manufacturing corporations look to string together several years worth of profitable quarters so they can get a better job with a different corporation. Since they have no personal ties to a particular technology or product industry, they don't mind hopping from industry to industry--their technical specialty is "management". They don't have to live with the long-term consequences of their quarterly report tweaking. I've seen this from the inside. I know former top GM executives, for example, who were actually trained automotive engineers. That's rare in the upper corporate committees now.
When Conn was sold to MacMillan in the late 60's, MacMillan didn't know a tuba from a manhole lid. They focused only on the cost model, not on the quality model, and identified a market driven only by the cost model. They moved production to Abilene and cheaper labor, and the so-called "Mexiconns" represent the low point in quality and resale value for the Conn instruments made there. When Conn production ultimately (after the merger with King) moved to Eastlake, their quality model improved again. That's where their tubas are still being made.
The reason a Conn 56J is $7500 (taking it on faith that this is the actual price--I don't know) is because if they sell it for any less, they lose money on it. So, they accept a smaller market. They can sell the King 2341 for less, but only by tolerating a lower-cost quality model, which they perceive as appropriate for their school-market target. But the 2341 is still a great tuba, though a bit of care may be required in making the selection and in prepping the instrument for final sale. The reason they don't innovate is because they see how well that worked for Holton. These instruments are still cheaper than the European alternatives--the price of a new Thor is pushing twice that.
People in Europe have lower expectations for quality of living than do Americans. They may be proud of that, and may think of Americans as greedy because of it, but that doesn't make it untrue. As Chinese and other Asian expectations of quality of life increase, as they already have in Japan and as they are already beginning to in China, their cost models will increase. And as their cost models increase, and as American workers adjust their expectations, manufacturing in the U.S. will begin to grow again. The truly unfortunate result is that we will have to build core capabilities again from scratch in many cases, but that is again the result of focusing on cost control to make quarterly reports look profitable. And before leaving this subject, I should point out that public corporations that choose not to be profitable in the way that I suggest are subject to legal attack by their stockholders, with considerable support given them by Sarbanes-Oxley. That's why the boards have to buy into the strategy.
Tubas are a boutique industry, and the market is diminishing to boutique manufacturers. It's the market that is dictating this, and nothing else. Making products, including tubas, in any given place without regard for the market has been tried, with central planning for production in the Soviet system. We know how that worked out: Production numbers were attained at whatever cost (that's how the Party hacks who were in charge of production kept score), with no regard for quality. Examples abound. In places where there was a cultural commitment to quality, some level of quality was maintained (e.g. B&S), but in places with no tradition for production quality at the worker level, such quality was spotty at best, even when the traditional designs were good (e.g. Amati, St. Petersburg). For good reading on this topic, do a little Googling on the two Carl Zeiss optics companies, the western company (in Oberkochen, West Germany), and the eastern company (in Jena, East Germany). Zeiss Jena peaked as a MUCH larger company than did Zeiss Oberkochen, but only because of production quotas. The quality model suffered hugely as a result, and their products are now worth about 10% of the western products that used the same Zeiss Foundation designs. And when the Jean works were subjected to market pressures after unification, they folded up like a house of cards, with bits and pieces surviving for a little while as parts of other companies, only a few of which are still successful.
Rick "who tried resisting the temptation to respond" Denney
Rick Denney wrote:What keeps a corporation from paying $1.37 an hour? They need skilled workers and the plant down the street is willing to pay $1.45 an hour for them. So, to attract them, they pay $1.55. Then the plant down the street offers $1.65. That proceeds until one can go no further, or the supply of skilled workers increases (as it surely will if prices for them are high enough), so that both plants are adequately staffed.
That would be fine if all companies operated above board and played by rules--and if there was not attempt to manipulate wages by all competitors in a particular field agreeing to a "wage cap" (Brinks Armored Car, for example, and its competitors did this until the government intervened--there are more examples). The history of US corporations is not a particularly pretty one.
Rick Denney wrote:I lived in Houston in the 70's (and the 60's, and the 50's--part of them--and my parents still live there). Jerry, I don't remember the corruption of which you speak with regard to law enforcement or racial tensions, though I do remember some of the same high-profile cases where facts were generally overwhelmed by the political reaction. I personally know the folks who were doing traffic engineering in City Hall at the time, and I know the folks doing it now, and the expertise was better in the earlier period, with considerable professionalism and without any patronage politics. (Houston was and still is quite different than many places in the lack of patronage politics, but it's getting worse these days not better). I do remember the corruption in the city's purchasing department in the 70's and before. I would be unwilling to believe that corruption has any racial component.
Rick, I will be more than happy to submit to you at least a couple of dozen examples of Houston's "sorted past"--things I know happened for a fact--via pm. Feel free to ask. And not to be rude at all, but I would remind you of the saying: Just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Houston had some major problems back then.
Jerry Johnson
Wessex Kaiser BBb aka "Willie"
Wessex Luzern BBb aka "Otto"
Lone Star Symphonic Band
The Prevailing Winds
TUBAD83 wrote:That would be fine if all companies operated above board and played by rules--and if there was not attempt to manipulate wages by all competitors in a particular field agreeing to a "wage cap" (Brinks Armored Car, for example, and its competitors did this until the government intervened--there are more examples). The history of US corporations is not a particularly pretty one.
The same could be said of union managements who did the same thing on the labor organizing side, and who had politicians in their pocket to run interference for them.
The solution is not more government, but more daylight. At this moment, there is far more daylight in publicly held corporate boardrooms than in big labor (or big politics).
Rick "noting that the halls of government can be pretty dingy places" Denney
How about this turtle - a real character - he is the oldest living animal AND he is still mating - at 176 plus and thus doesn't have time to post in Tubenet flame wars!
World's oldest living animal discovered after he is pictured in 1900 photograph
As a photograph it looks fairly unremarkable - a tortoise nibbles at the grass in front of a Boer War prisoner and guard.
He was photographed during the Boer War around 1900, and his life has spanned eight British monarchs from George IV to Elizabeth II, and 50 prime ministers. It was taken on the South Atlantic island of St Helena, where Jonathan still lives today, along with five other tortoises David, Speedy, Emma, Fredricka and Myrtle, in a plantation. The previous oldest tortoise was widely thought to be Harriet, a giant Galapagos Land tortoise, who died in 2005 aged 175 in Australia. Despite his old age, locals say he still has the energy to regularly mate with the three younger females. A spokesman for the island's tourist board said Jonathan is owned by the St Helena government and lives in the specially built plantation on the governor's land. He said: "Jonathan is the sole survivor of three tortoises that arrived on St Helena Island in 1882. "He was already mature when he arrived and was at least 50-years-old. "Therefore his minimum age is 176-years-old. He is the oldest inhabitant on St Helena and is claimed to be the oldest living tortoise in the world. "He lives in the grounds of Plantation House which is the governor's residence with five other tortoises who are much younger than him. "Apparently he remained nameless for the most part of his residence in St Helena until he was named by Governor Sir Spencer Davis in the 1930s. "He feeds on the grass of the main paddock. "Jonathan is still very active despite his age and adores attention, he is a real poser. "He seems to be sightless in one eye, but does not let that slow him down." It is thought Jonathan, from the species Testudinipae cytodira, was brought to St Helena from the Seychelles as a mature adult in 1882. His remarkable existance has come to light after the photograph was discovered as part of a collection of Boer War images taken by a man named L.A. Innes who had a studio in the British overseas territory's capital Jamestown.
I would ask what happened to made in Canada, too. But the answer there is fairly obvious. We had an aircraft industry. It vanished because of one huge project. We had a musical instrument manufacturing industry. It vanished, period. We had car makers. Gone, bought out by the States. We had a lot of things that went, because of comsumer demand for someting from somewhere else.
Tubas from China are cheaper to build, of the same quality (eventually, very eventually), and can be stamped easily with any name.
The same goes for other things. Parts from India come cheap. We're a large continent of managers now, because of shipping and communication improvements.
Ultimately, I think it's because we're consumers that things went to China, Taiwan, Mexico and other places. We demand a lot more, and we shop for the best deals. All of us, from the plant board on down.
Any time at all is tuba time. Watch for the signs.
Although this thread has drifted all over the place, I would like to get back to the original question. There are good quality brass instruments made in the USA. They are made by Kanstul. Their price is in many cases less than the Asian competition. I frankly think they are great horns. Zig Kanstul has a business model that does not over extend himself. He makes to order and he demands payment in 30 days. He owns is plant not the bank.
bloke wrote: I really wonder if the "school band" thing will last much longer in America. Can we talk...?? Large cities in America are becoming more "black". Certainly there are some black schools (high school and university) that REALLY get into wind instrument playing and make it into something quite their own...but in many schools in urban and mostly-black areas are found band rooms where a teacher presides over a handful of mostly-disinterested students.
First of all, cities are getting more "brown" and have you been to many of the "mostly-black" areas around the country, Joe?? What are you basing this on? The black areas I've been to the opposite is true. In fact, the Houston Independent School District (which is mostly black) is expanding its music program in all the schools (I have recently spoken with a couple of new band directors and they are pretty excited about it). Yes Memphis, Detroit, DC are very violent cities, but they are NOT the rule...these are the WORST cities because the city government is corrupt (Houston went through the same thing in the 70s--we had to get rid of the corruption in city hall and in the police department before things turned around). Please let go of the notion that because there is a large number of "blacks" or "browns" in a one area, its all going to hell. That IS "race crap".
One more thing--the idea of just blaming unions, lawyers, OSHA, social security, welfare, the tooth fairy for all the ills of the country is ridiculous. If good ole "Corporate America" had its way, the VAST majority of us would be making $1.37 an hour 90 hours a week and the only vacation we would get is when (not IF)we would be FIRED for having the unmitigated gall of getting SICK.
JJ "A black man who has NOT robbed, raped, jacked, shot, or been arrested...and there are MANY MANY more like ME, Thank You"
Yes, there are,I'm a Black Man who has not robbed,raped,jacked,shot or been arrested.I also vote and have no children by 5 different mother and still respect my parents at the age of 56.Thank You!I also listen to the Beatles.One thing I havn't seen is something on the price of brand news Tubas.That kanstual tuba that's suppose to be like the old York Tuba cost like $10,000.Who has that kind of money to buy a brand new tuba like and in the same breath the Howard Johnson model cost the same amount.
jwjeffrey wrote:One thing I havn't seen is something on the price of brand news Tubas. That kanstual tuba that's suppose to be like the old York Tuba cost like $10,000. Who has that kind of money to buy a brand new tuba
Yes, that's what it's about. For perspective, back in 1963, the median income of a US family was $6200. Today, median US income is more like $50000. So, who has that kind of money - and who had it back when we used to buy US made tubas?
On the other hand - I wish I could find a price from 1963, but I'm guessing a top of the line US made tuba was well under $1000, so it would have even then been a smaller fraction of household income. What would happen if you could somehow reckon "disposable" income, I have no idea.
