Gold Brass

[bud]

What is gold brass?

Is it only a different finish or is it a different metal?

What are some common characteristics of gold brass tubas?

How do playability and sound differ from brass lacquer or silver plate tubas?

Thanks.

[imperialbari]

Different alloy with higher percentage of copper.

More resistant against red rot.

More mellow sound in low and medium dynamics. Sound breaks up earlier in louder dynamics.

Cannot be compared to lacquer or plating as these are finishes, not basic alloys. These finishes may be added to any alloy.

Klaus

[iiipopes]

"Gold" brass is different from normal, or "yellow" brass mainly in that standard brass has @70% copper to 30% zinc, and "gold" has @ 80-85% copper to 15-20% zinc. This added percentage of copper makes the appearance seem more golden in color, hence its name. It is also softer, so it dents more easily.

There are two conventional wisdom philosophies as to using gold brass. The first is that all else being equal, it is a "warmer" tone. But there are so many other variables, especially on tubas, that this is a very minor consideration, if at all. The second is that with more copper, there is less zinc, which means the components of the horn, especially the lead pipe, are less susceptible to red rot. So with modern instruments you will often see the majority of the instrument made with conventional yellow brass, with a gold or red brass leadpipe.

[Tom]

So does:

gold brass = red brass = rose brass

[jonesbrass]

So does:

gold brass = red brass = rose brass

Not necessarily. Each manufacturer seems to use its own definition. . .

[Kevin Hendrick]

So does:

gold brass = red brass = rose brass

Not necessarily. Each manufacturer seems to use its own definition. . .

The red/rose brass looks much more like pure copper than gold brass does (from what I've seen, at least).

[Wyvern]

So does:

gold brass = red brass = rose brass

Different manufacturers use different names, but they may also have different percentage of copper content. Rudolf Meinl I believe is one of the few manufactures to offer BOTH gold brass and red brass options.

There is debate if gold brass makes a difference to sound. Some say it can't, but I believe it does add a special tone color. As far as susceptibility to denting - I personally have not experienced any difference. Be it yellow brass, or gold brass, if you hit it, it will dent. If you are careful, that is not much an issue

Gold brass is a more expensive metal and I understand more difficult to work - so gold brass tubas are always more expensive.

[imperialbari]

Gold brass is a more expensive metal and I understand more difficult to work - so gold brass tubas are always more expensive.

40 years ago the price formula for gold brass instruments from B&S was 125% of the price for yellow brass instruments. Most of that difference i would ascribe to added work costs. The price of the gold brass alloys shouldn’t be much higher than yellow brass. Only the logistics around the rarer alloys are much more costly.

Klaus

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

We just wrapped up a 1905 King BBb Helicon, it had a body that was completely made of gold-brass, not the valves or slides, just the body branches and the bell. I can only guess the reason for doing so but I would most probably be wrong. It was sent to Anderson after I spent all of the previous Sunday afternoon bead-blasting and cleaning it up. Even though it was kind of cool, the work aside, packing and shipping such a big horn is a serious pain in the ***. I think I will take a pass on the next one that should wonder in the door. Can I have them send it to you Joe?


Gold-brass body-helicon prior to blasting and bell mounting.

Daniel C. "thinking that if they had made the goose neck out of gold brass instead of yellow, I would have not had to make a new one out of nickel-silver" Oberloh

Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
http://www.oberloh.com" target="_blank" target="_blank"

[Wyvern]

I can't recall that any particular TUBA (where this metal is/was OPTIONAL) was the BEST dog-gone tuba of that model I've ever played.

Bloke, You obviously haven't tried my gold brass Melton 2040/5 Eb!

Mark Carter at Mr.Tuba was rather sceptical about me having one made in gold brass initially, but said himself when he tried was "amazed at how much better it plays". Of course how much of that is down to it being gold brass and how much because handmade we cannot know. But there is not the slightest doubt it is the best tuba of that model as Mark has play tested every 2040/5 produced (that model is very much his baby - he worked with M-W in its design)*

* In case you think this is just unashamed advertising of my Eb - it is no longer for sale.

[bigbob]

What is red rot???What is a darktone as opposed to a bright tone and what are overtones?? thanks..............................................................bigbob http://www.rgisculptures.com" target="_blank

[iiipopes]

While you're looking it up on google, "red rot" is the disintegration of the zinc out of the brass alloy, leaving behind "swiss cheese" copper that is spongy and porous. There is no cure. The affected parts have to be cut out and replaced. Usually the cause is acidic environment, but not always.

[iiipopes]

bloke - indeed. The point being that either extreme, acid or alkaline, can leech the zinc out of the brass, because it is an electrolytic process, not a corrosive process.

[Roger Lewis]

From my conversations with Gerhard Meinl, the traditional yellow brass, as stated earlier is usually about 70% copper 30% zinc. Gold brass increases the copper content to roughly (as stated earlier) 80% copper and 20% zinc. Red brass, such as on the bells of the old Conn 88H trombones and again as stated earlier, is roughly 90% copper and 10% zinc.

I have noticed that the Chinese instruments tend to come through with what appears to be a more 60% copper and 40% zinc alloy.

Just my $0.02.

Roger

[bigbob]

Thank You all so much you have been very helpful and informative...bigbob http://www.rgisculptures.com" target="_blank

[imperialbari]

Isn’t 60/40 with 1% tin Admiralty brass? And weren’t York using exactly using Admiralty brass for at least their tubas?

One problem with large bore instruments is clarity in very low dynamics. Is it possible that part of the York magic comes from a richer overtone pattern exactly in the lower dynamics?

The bug has worked with York patents, but found nothing on the alloys.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

The copper/zinc ratio is important, but is not the only important factor. The coin metal (Münz) may have the same ratio of the main ingredients as Admiralty brass, but still be very different and undesirable for musical purposes exactly because of deviations in the small-amount ingredients.

70/30 is military standard cartridge (powder container) brass in several countries on both sides of the pond. Nearly 30 years ago the production manager of Boosey & Hawkes at a clinic in Denmark told, that the absolutely worst national standard of cartridge metal by metallurgical points of view was the one of the USA. Which in turn was the reason for American trumpets and trombones excelling over their European equivalents.

Before international logistics improved, cartridge metal was the brass alloy available at reasonable costs. Anything else would be very expensive,

bloke’s observations on the red colour of the helicon in the Oberloh photo really caught my attention. The low brass must have been more expensive, but the extra costs have been justifiable because the simpler plating process could be made in-house, thereby cutting out the shipping costs forth and back to the plating company.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Now we know how bloke gets his tubing for spares and repairs: he sts up a trap!

I have been very close to Chinese culture and business practices. I won’t comment on this myself, only quote a very important US periodical of my youth, MAD: The main challenge in managing a Chinese restaurant is knowing the food ingredients from the garbage.

As for Chines metals of dubious heritage: In nJune this year a molar broke and went beyond further repair. I had some Danish made gold based ceramic crowns already, but a cheaper alternative has entered the market and shall be mentioned by the dentist: Chinese crowns can be had at a much lower price justifying the longer wait. The problem is that the gold alloys used by the Chinese cannot be controlled even if they are backed by a guarantee from a Danish laboratory. I want my crowns to last my time out, so I chose the locally made crown. Somewhere I have the formula for the gold alloy- Interestingly it also holds expensive ingredients like platinum. Pure gold would not like heat of the ceramic oven and it would not be hard enough to withstand the force of a human bite.

Klaus

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

re: the fact that your King helicon is made of "gold brass"...

Do you think it's that old speciality brass that many refer to as "low brass" (ie: low zinc)? I'm pretty sure that American manufacturers early in the 20th Century made instruments out of "low brass" that were specifically targeted for factory silver plating...The silver bonds better to "low brass" than it does to most run-of-the-mill "yellow brass" formulations, and without the "copper strike" step being necessary.

I don't think this is the case. During my time in the silver-smiths trade, we used copper for many of the products we made that were then silver plated, such as punch bowls, ladles, and other deep drawn and/or hammered vessels. Copper is malleable and relatively simpler to hand-work then brass. My past experience in addition to the understanding of the methods in large brass instrument production (used in 1905) leads me to think that the materials chosen had more to do with the physical production of the parts and the ease of finishing then the enhancement of plating bond. The old silver plating methods are pretty damn good and as long as the sub-straight of the material is properly cleaned and prepared, it don't matter if its copper, bronze, brass, nickel-silver (any copper alloy), its gonna plate just fine.

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
http://www.oberloh.com" target="_blank"

[TubaSailor]

English handbells are made of a very stiff bronze alloy. (I've played in several very good, auditioned groups for more than 20 years, and have had to maintain several sets for many of those years). The analogy to a tuba really doesn't work unless you want to make the tuba a percussion instrument. One thing we seem to lose sight of is that the resonance of the tuba is really more due to the shape of the air column inside, and only partially to the material shaping that column. - Take a look at gooddigs' plastic tubas or the Martin fiberglass horns - They seem to work!

Back to the gold brass issue: I've had some of each, and I can only conclude that the differences between individual horns are bigger than the difference due to the material. I like the timbre of the gold brass 181 I have now, and many musically discerning people have commented on how mellow it sounds, but I can't ascribe that to the gold brass - if I change mouthpieces I can make it as strident and bright as any yellow brass horn I've ever played.