antique helicon repair advice

[nathanoyler]

Hey gang,

I recently purchased a beautiful, antique helicon on eBay, but quickly noticed it had some problems. It's a Frank Holton Chicago E-flat horn circa 1912 with 3 valves. Right away, I noticed that the valves needed some work, but tried to tune it up and play it anyway. After getting the upper octave of the horn in tune, I noticed that the lower octave of the horn was almost a full step flat. Starting at around middle F, the horn was off. If I play an E-flat, a D comes out. If I play a D, a C comes out. Etc. So, I took it to the repair shop and the guy said it sounded like leaking valves. He did an excellent job rebuilding the valves, so the horn now has great compression.......but the pitch problem is still there!

The horn is old enough that an extra slide was added to the main tuning slide back when it was agreed that 'A' was at 440Hz. If I remove this slide and tune up the lower octave of the horn, the upper octave is obviously way off. The lower octave isn't perfect. so it didn't seem to help much. I took it back to the repair shop and we spent about an hour playing with different bits and mouthpieces and trying to tune various notes on the horn, but nothing worked out. If we got a couple notes in tune, soooo many more would be completely off.

Now, if it was just a note or two on the whole horn that was off, I'd learn to play up or down on those notes to get them close...but no matter what we did, we couldn't get it tuned well enough to ever really be playable. If the whole horn was off by a half step or so, it would be easy enough to cut off some length of a slide somewhere, but this is ridiculous.

Any ideas? Chances are good that I'll end up cutting my losses and putting this horn back on eBay...

[Bob Kolada]

My pre-1915 King Eb (tuba, not helicon but whatever) favors a flat 2nd partial as well. What I ended up doing was tuning the horn so that note was in tune. 5th partial is now much better and the other partials are still fine. Funny I know...

If it helps, I am using a shallow 30mm mp. It sounds great with larger mp's and has a huge low C-A, but they seem to accentuate the 2nd partial problem. This mp doesn't seem to have any problems other than the low range being a bit zippier (which I like) and the false tones being almost unusable. Oh well.

[Donn]

Any ideas? Chances are good that I'll end up cutting my losses and putting this horn back on eBay...

Oh, great - well, thanks for the warning!

I had a baritone with problems I would have described in similar terms - in this case, low Bb came out A. Nothing came of a trip to the shop, but a subsequent owner reportedly was able to significantly correct the problem by sealing up the leadpipe. So maybe your repairman was right, but there's more to be fixed. With mine, the offending flat notes were not just flat to the tuner, they were dull and unfocused compared to the notes around them. They were also limited to a fairly narrow range, really just a few notes at the most noticeable anyway. Maybe with more leaks, the problem would grow wider.

I agree that an old style small mouthpiece would be worth a try, if you can round one up. I have recently received one myself from an esteemed fellow Tubenet member, and I have to wait for a 9V battery to charge before I can get the tuner's story on it, but I can hear the pitch go up a little. Not likely enough to solve your problem, though.

My thought on my baritone was that no horn would ever play a half step flat like that by design, in any era or by any manufacturer, so it had to be a defect that could be fixed.

[Art Hovey]

I have an old high-pitch euphonium that goes flat in the low register when the tuning slide is pulled out far enough to get the upper range in tune. If I push the slide all the way in the horn is pretty well in tune with itself. Your symptoms are similar. You could just learn to play it in E instead of E-flat, or you might even be able to trim it to play in F. -Or else just shine it up and re-bay it.

[Dean E]

. . . . If I play an E-flat, a D comes out. If I play a D, a C comes out. Etc. . . .

So, what is it? To me it would be important to know if the horn were a half step flat or a whole step flat. Obviously, Eb-D is a half step, and D-C is a whole step. I'm not sure from the description what kind of slide was added. Did it replace the original with a shorter slide, or did it merely add extra length to the open bugle?

Some older horns were designed to a higher A than 440, and some were designed for a lower A than 440. I would assume that the valve slides were not redesigned, and that might be contributing to the overall problem. Could it be that the travel in each of the valve slides is too short to permit pushing them in enough to raise the pitch?

I would take a close look at the gooseneck, tuning bits, and lead pipe. They probably are not original, and could well be a problem source. Look for too long, too short, or leaking.

[imperialbari]

The OP’s pitch observations may read odd, but they still may very much be true. When the original set-up has been changed by leaks, other mouthpiece, longer tuning slide, and/or other factors then the pitch changes don’t have to be linear. That is: teh pitch discrepancies don’t have to be the same on all notes.

My first look for a culprit would be searching for leaks. There are fine methods involving soap. I just fill the instrument with water and watch whether water is coming out in ever so small quantities.

And then I would experiment with mouthpieces. Modern mouthpieces tend to be wider and deeper than the old ones. Maybe one of the Bach models made for the Barcone kids’ sousaphones will be right, maybe a modern wide and shallow bassbone mouthpiece. The latter might be quite close to the original.

If the mouthpiece has a throat dimension much larger than the original one, then the octaves will tend to stretch.

Klaus

[nathanoyler]

I'm not sure from the description what kind of slide was added. Did it replace the original with a shorter slide, or did it merely add extra length to the open bugle?

The main tuning slide has an extension added to it. Picture attached for clarification.

If the mouthpiece has a throat dimension much larger than the original one, then the octaves will tend to stretch.

I believe the mouthpiece, bits, and neck are all original to the horn. The mouthpiece is a traditional, old E-flat mouthpiece, so it's a fair bit smaller than my normal B-flat mouthpieces. It also has the Frank Holton Chicago branding on it. The shank is much smaller. I believe the neck to be original because it was stuck in the horn when I got it. It rotated side to side about half an inch or so, but wouldn't come out. The repair shop fixed that, too.

It looks like a patch was applied to the lead pipe where the neck attaches at some point in the horn's past. My repair guy felt around and said it felt smooth on the inside so he wasn't sure if trying to repair it would yield any results. He said it was, at best, a shot in the dark. I might have him give it a go, though, since I love the horn otherwise!

[Donn]

Nice looking instrument, from this intriguing glimpse - maybe horn dorn is all the more tantalizing when you don't see everything. The slide looks original. It would sure be on my list to find some way to check that leadpipe for leaks, maybe including the bits and all.

[Harvey Hartman]

Hi This summer I reworked a Older 1920s Holton Eb 3valve +1 valve on the side Tuba. I did a valve job on the horn. The horn was a real mess. Dents all over the place 2 holes in the bell that silver solder closed.The horn came out great. I first played the horn with a Old Conn Eb mouthpie maked Conn small?? It played great and in tune .We when with a Dennis Wick #3 mouthpiece it workes real good BUT The owner was not putting alot of air into the horn He was not surporting the notes and the horn would fall flat for him.
Make shore there are no other air leaks. Put a puger in the horn spairy the horn with soaply water. Hold the puger in the horn blow air in the horn .If there is a leak you will see bubbles coming out.
Also I think alot of the older horns were made to the Higher parts alot of the older music has a Eb part and a BBb part. Thanks Harv.

[nathanoyler]

2/ Ask Russ Dickman about this one: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=28375

That's a fine looking horn! And it had me thinking...

I'm really in love with the horn I've got. I've spent the last 5 years (off and on) looking to buy a helicon, and this one appeared from the blue. It's got a few minor dings in it, but overall, the physical condition of the horn is pretty amazing. I got a pretty good deal on the horn itself ($1300, I think?) and the valve job was another $250, so I doubt I'd break even if I put it back on eBay. I think I'll coat the horn in soap and try to find a leak somewhere. My gut tells me the lead pipe probably is the culprit considering the existing patch and the surface crack above it (as seen in previous pic). If my repair guy can put a new one on there, I think it's worth a try.

For sake of tuba dorn, here are some more pics of the horn in its entirety.

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys!

[windshieldbug]

These horns were built to use much smaller mouthpieces than modern horns, in shank, cup width, and depth, ESPECIALLY Eb's.

If you are having trouble trying one quickly, a Bass Trombone seems to be close to the right size. Wouldn't cost anything to borrow one and give it a quick whirl; see if it has any effect!

[imperialbari]

This old Holton may be of value to a very small market segment: those wanting an American made piston helicon in F.

The leadpipe going through a long and wide main tuning slide is an old style trait in an American circlophonium context. It was the exact same feature that allowed bloke to come up with the famous CC Buescher helicon. A new leadpipe will have to go into a smaller main tuning slide placed before the 1st piston.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

This evaluation is even worse than what you say about the Holton BBb sousaphones. What was it Holton never got about making sousaphones?

It takes skills to make something especially good, but it also takes something special to make things particularly bad.

Klaus



- is this the pork industry’s attempt of marketing an alternative to the term of Holy Cow?

[tbn.al]

In my life journey of blowing through large brass funnels, the Holton Eb ones (in various shapes and sizes) have seemed to consistently have been amongst the most foreign to anything resembling a "scale".

Couldn't you just tweak the pipes a bit like you did to my Olds and make a scale. BTW I'm sure enjoying the Olds. As long as you don't expect it to be something it's not, it's really very, very good at being what it is. The middle two octaves are just about perfect in intonation, sound quality and response. Thanks a bunch!

[nathanoyler]

To do a quickie check of the leadpipe for leaks, couldn't you just pull the tuning slide out, cover the end of the hole with your palm and blow into the leadpipe/neck?

Hey, that's a pretty good idea! I think that it would be hard to notice if air was leaking unless there was a really bad leak, so maybe I'll take your idea and change it a bit. I could pull the slide out, wrap up the end with plastic wrap, and then fill the leadpipe with water. That would probably cause it to drip out a bit and identify any leaks. I may even blow into the top once it's 99% full of water to help push any water through any leaks.

Thanks!

[Dean E]

. . . I could pull the slide out, wrap up the end with plastic wrap, and then fill the leadpipe with water. That would probably cause it to drip out a bit and identify any leaks. I may even blow into the top once it's 99% full of water to help push any water through any leaks. . . .

Air under pressure is the best way to test for leaks, especially if you can place the tuba (or other "pressure vessel") under water. Look for bubbles. Water and other liquids just will not do the trick.

[sloan]

1/ re-Bay yours.

2/ Ask Russ Dickman about this one: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=28375

Too late. I snapped it up.

Other than a general recommendation, do you have any special knowledge of this particular instrument? (the deal is already done, so don't worry about that).

I suppose it will be in your hands sometime in the next 2 years, depending on how "cherry" it really is. But, once it arrives, my existing pre-1900 (my estimate) Eb helicon will be freed up for serious re-grooving. A December visit is not out of the question. I'm thinking of bringing both the Eb helicon and the Conn 36J. As always, I don't need anything close to "same day" or even "same week" service. I have other people to see in the Memphis area and plan on regular trips. One trip to drop off and another to pick up is just fine with me.

I was chatting with Andy Miller the other night and it sounds like he'll be visiting you soon. Now *he* has a serious horn! You'll like it. It's beginning to look like there's a business opportunity here to start a shuttle bus up and down I-22. It's one interchange away from being all-Interstate from me to you (except the bits at either end). Andrew, Todd, Martin, and me ... you might need to open a branch office.

I now have 4 new tires on my car - it turns out that the vibration that I *thought* was due to a loose panel was in fact a separated tire. Somehow, I avoided having it blow out on the highway.