What is better for good intonation- 3v comp vs 4v comp?

[Ulli]

What is better for good intonation- 3v compensated vs 4v comp, -if you dont need the 4. valve to reach deepest possible notes?
The compensation system is activated from the 3. vs 4 valve. I think, I need the 3.v of a 3v horn more often than the 4.v of a 4v horn- and play so 'more often' compensated?
Ulli

[Z-Tuba Dude]

You are right!

There are fewer notes that are "uncompensated" with the 3 valve compensator instruments. In fact the only valve combo that I can think of, which will still be a problem, will be notes played with 1-2-3 (assuming you use 3, instead of 1-2). If you have false tones, too, you're all set!

On a 4 valve horn, 2-3, 1-3-4, 1-2-3-4, 1-3-4, 2-3-4, are all suspect!

[peter birch]

I think good intonation is in the ear and the mind of the player. I have heard all sorts of players with all sorts of instruments, and it is possible for some players to get their tubas in tune whether they have 3 or 4 valves, compensated or not, and other players have intonation problems with the same instruments.
It is all in the listening, and being aware of the vagaries of the valve combinations and making the necessary adjustments with slides or the embrouchure as we play.

[iiipopes]

Since I own a 3-valve comp, I am biased, but unless you need the near-pedal range, both theoretically, and at least on my instrument, the 3-valve comp has better overall intonation, because you can use 3 alone instead of 1+2, and everything else except 1+2+3 has all the tubing added in the right places. Even 1+2+3, because of the extra tubing, is no more sharp than a lot of tubas on 1+2.

The down side is that you may get a couple of "stuffy" notes here and there as the nodes and anti-nodes fight their way a second time through the valve block, so it's even more important to keep valve alignment in check.

The other downside is that I don't believe anybody is making 3-valve comps anymore, Besson having discontinued them in the mid to late '70's, and Hirsbrunner only making a few of them (yes, 3-valve double-decker rotor comp) in decades past. So any 3-valve comp will have all the issues of any 30+ year old horn.

Of course, depending on the instrument, the expansion of the bore in critical areas, the placement of braces, taper of leadpipe, etc., some tubas, regardless of their configuration, whether conventional or compensating, can have superior intonation in any event.

So like everything else, it still comes down to the tuba matching the player. I got lucky with mine.

[peter birch]

Besson York And Yamaha all make 3 valve compensating baritones, so there is probably no reason why they shouldn't make 3 valve compensating tubas in Eb and Bb flavours, but it is probably a commercial decision that they don't.
iiipopes comment about getting lucky with his tuba reminds me of the Arnold Palmer comment about luck (the more you practice the luckier you get), but remember that every instrument has perfect intonation...until someone picks it up to play it!!

[iiipopes]

Um, are you sure those "3-valve" horns aren't actually "3+1 horns, or "conventional" 3-valve saxhorns?

[Rick Denney]

Fred Young did some serious analysis and found that the three-valve compensation system was a more accurate design than the four-valve system.

But that doesn't mean a particular 3-valve comper is better than another particular 4-valve comper. Each instrument has to stand on its own merits. Plenty of instruments with compensating valves have terrible intonation.

And, yes, the player must have good pitch in his head. But who wants to be in the position of having to fight the instrument on every note?

Rick "whose understanding of the effect of taper design is that it's a miracle any tuba or euphonium plays in tune" Denney

[Wyvern]

It depends if you are talking about Eb, or BBb tubas? For an Eb to be of real use, 4 valves are essential, so if you want compensated - it must be a 4 valver.

For BBb things are rather different - a 3 valve can get down pretty low, while I doubt if most people have that good an ear for pitch in the low BBb 4 valve territory to really appreciate the compensated system.

Do remember in your choice, that British style compensated tubas don't as a rule have false tones which limits the range for a 3 valve.

[sloan]

What is better for good intonation- 3v compensated vs 4v comp, -if you dont need the 4. valve to reach deepest possible notes?
The compensation system is activated from the 3. vs 4 valve. I think, I need the 3.v of a 3v horn more often than the 4.v of a 4v horn- and play so 'more often' compensated?
Ulli

yes, but...how often do you use the 3rd valve (plus another) on a 4v instrument?

And, how many of the note played with 4 (plus another) are even possible on a 3v instrument?

and...what good is the compensation if the partials are not in tune with each other?

Personally, I think 4v UNcompensating is the right choice. (as long as #1 is available to pull). It's less complicated (less to go wrong) and more versatile. Plus a good set of ears...

[TUbajohn20J]

This post brings back memories for me. Back in my high school days, my school had 6 satin silver Besson "New Standard" BBb tubas (the tallboys), all 3 valve compensating from the 60's I believe. Man those were some very nice tubas. They sounded so mellow and the false tones were dead on...GREAT horns The director bought 4 new bright silver Yamaha 641's , so I played those for a while..but I always went back to the old Bessons every now and then just for the pleasure of playing them. We also had Besson euphoniums 3 and 4 valve compensating from the same era...Those produced a sound so sweet that none other can match. Makes me kind of want to buy an old Besson 3 valve comp. tuba one day!

[AndyCat]

I have a 3v BBb Imp and a 4v. The 3 valve is easier to play in tune. 1+2+3 is pretty near, whereas the 4 valver needs the 4th valve!

It surprised me how easy the 3v is to play in tune in a lot of situations. Unfortunately, I play low most of the time!