LSO Low Brass 1922?

[Peach]

So I have this photo on my PC marked "LSO_1922_3_Choirs_Festival".
Can't remember where I got it.

I was just thinking the tuba is quite large for what I perceive British orchestras using in 1922. It's obviosly a compensating B&H/Besson so not a Barlow (I forget his dates at the LSO and my Bevan book is on-loan...). Presumably F, but again, quite BIG. The bell must be a good 17"...

Think the photo is legit - ie 1922? If so, who's playing and what's the tuba?
Nice G Bass with trigger and tiny looking tenors too.

Klaus...?

Cheers,
MP

[Wyvern]

That photo is on page 161 of "The Cambridge Companion to Brass Instruments" and is labelled "The trombones and tuba of the London Symphony Orchestra, at the Three Choirs Festival, Worcester, 1922.

I thought the tuba pretty big for a British F too! I wonder if it is possibly an EEb from a military band, as looking at picture with magnifying glass, I think I can see a lyre box on 1st valve slide

[iiipopes]

Isn't that a B&H Eb 4-valve comp, which was a tuba commonly used by British orchestral tubists in that era?

[ZNC Dandy]

I have a book that also has this picture in it, that is about the LSO's history. Has personnel listings in it. It's at my parents house, and i'll grab it tomorrow while i'm there. Report back then!

[imperialbari]

It is possibly a matter of optical deception. My Boosey F is from 1923, but who knows about the exactness of my sources therefor. It is more compact than the B&H Imperial 15 inch bell diameter Eb basses. The bell is made on the same mandrel, but the F is cut to have less flare, which makes the throat and stack look very fat. For me the giveaway is the 1st valve compensating loop, which is vertical on the Eb basses I know of, but which points towards the bell on my F. The one on the photo could maybe the one I have now.

I have wondered why, but my F has the lyre holder as well as carrying rings.

The G bass trombone looks like having a C extension in its valve, which is necessary to get the full chromatic down to pedal G. But that also calls for good slide technique, as there is no valve relief in notes in the 6th and 7th positions.

Klaus

[Ace]

I'm sure those guys were virtuoso players for their day. It would be great to get into a time machine and hear them live doing some Elgar. The moustaches are interesting. Reminds me of one of our American trombone players 60 years ago.

[Peach]

Thanks for the replies chaps.

I'm pretty certain it's an F. Look at how near the top bow runs to the pistons; much tighter than the Eb models.
My best guess is that the bell is a prototype of some sort.

Here's a picture of a 1923 F showing the top bow and a RH thumb ring also visable in the 1922 pic.
The two tubas are very similar but the bell on the low brass shot certainly looks bigger. Maybe just an optical 'angle' as Klaus suggests...

Cheers,
MP

[imperialbari]

With the British makers not been known to re-tool too much I doubt the bell of the F being a prototype. It is shorter and with less flare compared to well known New Stand and Imperial Eb tubas. Even more so compared to the more recent 981 and 982 Sovereigns. The bell still was made on the same mandrel for all of these Eb models and for this F. As my own 981 is silver plated, I cannot tell wether its flare is spun separately and joined to the old size stack, but that would be one way to recycle the old mandrel. Before the wide Sovereign flares were introduced, the British makers used gussets to avoid the flare becoming too thin.

One matter that I have no inroad to research, but which I would want to know about, is the collaboration between the British makers before the company mergers until 1940. The various makers had some different models, but there also are obvious similarities, where some makers made compensating models, even if Boosey had the Blaikley patent. I strongly suspect that the Brits operated in a fashion similar to the Markneukirchen practice of the various makers specializing in bells, valves, bows and whatever detail. They bought parts from each other, and the one assembling the instrument put his name on it.

Klaus

[iiipopes]

Actually, B&H was one of the few companies that did basically everything themselves at Edgeware Road, including keeping a very tight reign on the comp system.

Plus, and I admit it may be the photo angle, but there is more space between the valve buttons and the top bow in the old picture than the picture of the F, and the configuration of the placement of the 4th valve circuit in the picture comes up higher in the back than in the F.

I still vote for Eb.

[imperialbari]

Misplaced a couple of postings in the For sale sub-forum:

viewtopic.php?p=320580#p320580

[jmh3412]

I'm pretty certain it's an F. Look at how near the top bow runs to the pistons; much tighter than the Eb models.
My best guess is that the bell is a prototype of some sort.

Here's a picture of a 1923 F showing the top bow and a RH thumb ring also visable in the 1922 pic.
The two tubas are very similar but the bell on the low brass shot certainly looks bigger. Maybe just an optical 'angle' as Klaus suggests...

Cheers,

That is one beautiful restoration - looks great - how does it play?? Was the restoration work done by mcQueen's??

[The Deep End]

Left to right - Jesse Stamp, E.T. Garvin, Francis Ash ( tuba ) and R.Evans.
Apparently this is at the Leeds Festival in 1922 . I think Harry Barlow must have been in the LSO before this and was a founder member. The LSO was formed in 1904.

[ZNC Dandy]

Left to right - Jesse Stamp, E.T. Garvin, Francis Ash ( tuba ) and R.Evans.
Apparently this is at the Leeds Festival in 1922 . I think Harry Barlow must have been in the LSO before this and was a founder member. The LSO was formed in 1904.

I'm glad someone else had this info, I couldn't find the book i was looking for

[Rick Denney]

It would highly unusual for this to be an Eb tuba. Those were commonly in high-pitch in those days, and would be quite difficult to use in an orchestra. Also, the F was the standard orchestral instrument, and there was some snootiness between F players in orchestras and Eb players in bands. Not all the orchestral Fs were the Barlow designs, of course. Catelinet had a compensating F tuba similar to this one in the late 40's and early 50's.

The second edition of Bevan has a pretty good inventory of known British orchestral F tubas, but my copy is at home.

Jay Rozen used to own a similar instrument, and I have tooted on it, though too many years ago to remember much about it. In my hands, it didn't seem that small--certainly bigger feeling than a Yamaha 621. I think it was only the Barlow models with 5 uncompensated valves that had the 12" bell.

Rick "recalling that the F used by Stuart Roebuck was also bigger than the typical Barlow F" Denney