Conn 20-J With A Hole In It

[smyoung]

As a testament to the perils of winning a tuba on eBay, my dad won this for a few hundred bucks several years ago, but I'm not sure if he knew fully about its condition. It is in good shape except for a section of tubing that is smashed in that also had a small (but any size is too big!) hole in it. You can see from the pics that it comes after the main tuning slide. Remnants can also be seen of the electrical tape "fix" the previous owner (the case has markings from a middle school, but who knows...) applied to stop the air leak that is quite audible when playing.

Because of this damage, this tuba has rarely been taken out of the closet and has never been played like it could be. Needless to say, I would love to be able to get it back into playable shape and use it.

My guess is that the tubing is beyond repair and should simply be replaced. Does anyone know of if/where I could find a replacement section? There is a repairman where I live that would be able to replace it; I would just need the part. Aside from that, are there any other possibilities for reviving it?

Thank you,

Stephen


A close-up of the section of tubing:


The section in larger context:

[jamsav]

Where are you located ? There are plenty of good repair guys in this forum that would make short work of that repair...

[sloan]

As a testament to the perils of winning a tuba on eBay, my dad won this for a few hundred bucks several years ago, but I'm not sure if he knew fully about its condition. It is in good shape except for a section of tubing that is smashed in that also had a small (but any size is too big!) hole in it. You can see from the pics that it comes after the main tuning slide. Remnants can also be seen of the electrical tape "fix" the previous owner (the case has markings from a middle school, but who knows...) applied to stop the air leak that is quite audible when playing.

Because of this damage, this tuba has rarely been taken out of the closet and has never been played like it could be. Needless to say, I would love to be able to get it back into playable shape and use it.

My guess is that the tubing is beyond repair and should simply be replaced. Does anyone know of if/where I could find a replacement section? There is a repairman where I live that would be able to replace it; I would just need the part. Aside from that, are there any other possibilities for reviving it?

Thank you,

Stephen


A close-up of the section of tubing:


The section in larger context:

If this were my tuba, the answer would be simple: take it to a good shop for a full "econo-rehab" with "playability" as the only criterion. Surely there is more to be done to this tuba than simply replacing one section of tubing - things that will make a *lot* of difference in the quality of sound that comes out the bell.

For a good shop, replacing this section of tubing should be a rather small part of the "make it playable" project - and a relatively small part of the bill.

Let me put it another way - if this is NOT a minor part of a general econo-overhaul, then you haven't taken it to a "good shop". Either their charge for this one item is too big, or their standards regarding what "playable" means are too low.

If you *only* get the part, with no other work done, you incur all of the start-up costs, for very little of the total benefit.

bite the bullet: identify a quality shop near you - take the tuba to them - tell them to "Clean, Lube, and Adjust - make it play, and don't try to make it pretty".

And again - if the shop takes one look at the crushed tubing and says "That will be expensive", pick up your tuba and walk out the door. Either you won't be happy with them, or they won't be happy with you. In the worst case, they might not have any more of a clue about where to get the necessary part(s) than you do. At a good shop, a large part of what you are paying for is "been there, done that, have the box of spare parts".

And finally - regular trips to the shop should be part of your cost of owning the tuba - no matter what condition it is in when you buy it. If you can't afford an econo-rehab that will include fixing this tubing (*almost for free*), then you can't afford the tuba. Do what the last owner did and dump it on eBay.

[Dan Schultz]

I always wonder how damage like this gets done. But... what's done is done.

If your guy knows anything about fixing brass.... it's not a difficult fix. If he can't handle it... put the body on a bus and send it to one of a dozen or so on this board who fix stuff.

[saktoons]

A few years ago I took my 20J to a local shop and asked them to do the clean, lube, and make it play better thing. (It was already quite playable, but I was worried about some leaks and valve alignment, primarily.) Anyway, not only did he do great work making it play even better, but he changed the lead pipe configuration to really open up the sound, and he built a whole new bow guard to replace the one that was coming off. And all of this work for less than $400.

My point? The right instrument tech can do wonders for a horn for not a lot of money. It doesn't hurt to take it to a local shop and ask them what they can do. I think when it's done, you're going to love the horn.

[Mike-ICR]

If this were my tuba, the answer would be simple: take it to a good shop for a full "econo-rehab" with "playability" as the only criterion. Surely there is more to be done to this tuba than simply replacing one section of tubing - things that will make a *lot* of difference in the quality of sound that comes out the bell.

For a good shop, replacing this section of tubing should be a rather small part of the "make it playable" project - and a relatively small part of the bill.

Let me put it another way - if this is NOT a minor part of a general econo-overhaul, then you haven't taken it to a "good shop". Either their charge for this one item is too big, or their standards regarding what "playable" means are too low.

If you *only* get the part, with no other work done, you incur all of the start-up costs, for very little of the total benefit.

bite the bullet: identify a quality shop near you - take the tuba to them - tell them to "Clean, Lube, and Adjust - make it play, and don't try to make it pretty".

And again - if the shop takes one look at the crushed tubing and says "That will be expensive", pick up your tuba and walk out the door. Either you won't be happy with them, or they won't be happy with you. In the worst case, they might not have any more of a clue about where to get the necessary part(s) than you do. At a good shop, a large part of what you are paying for is "been there, done that, have the box of spare parts".

And finally - regular trips to the shop should be part of your cost of owning the tuba - no matter what condition it is in when you buy it. If you can't afford an econo-rehab that will include fixing this tubing (*almost for free*), then you can't afford the tuba. Do what the last owner did and dump it on eBay.

The OP didn't say that this section of tubing was the only thing to be replaced or that it was the only thing needed to make the horn playable. He wants to know where/if he can find the part.

While routine maintenance is a necessary part of owning an instrument, the maintenance schedule can vary drastically from player to player. If you plan to play for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, your horn will need more attention than an instrument that's being used once a week, or once a month. That's something you should discuss with your tech of choice.

The part may not be so simple or cheap to replace. These horns aren't exactly falling from the sky. As far as I know, you can't purchase the body parts new. You'll likely need to find a used part. It could happen that your local shop has a storage room full of mint condition 2XJ tubas they keep for parts but I doubt that's the case. Because parts horns are rare and these horns are popular, the parts are in high demand and will probably be expensive. I could be wrong. IF you get your hands on a used part it will still need to be installed or maybe even repaired before it can be installed. Any shop, good or bad, will still charge to install it. The labor costs of removing the old part, repairing the new/used part and installing the new/used part will likely outweigh the
$2(?) you might spend on new water key corks. If you're confident that your local tech will do a good job and they quote you a reasonable price, I say do it. DO compare that price to the price of a cleaning or dent removal or piano moving or gas prices.

If you WANT this tuba and think you want to PLAY this tuba then get it fixed up and go with it. Good luck.

[Oceantuba]

The one challenging part of a repair like this, is that the metal MAY be thin from use (sweat/acid from hand). Especially where hole is.

IF metal is thin, in the wrong hands, that hole could get larger, or the metal could crack.

But a good repairman should know how to deal with this.

OT.

[The Big Ben]

As Tuba Tinker said, the horn jockeys who frequent this board would have no problem fixing this. Replacing the parts or restoring the tubes, this doesn't look like a big deal for someone with experience. Put it on a Greyhound bus if necessary....

In the mean time....

How does it play with the hole covered? Those are pretty big pipes and it might be OK for your purposes if it was sealed. The adhesives aisle at the hardware store has lots of things that would seal it up so it wouldn't leak.

[smyoung]

I live in Juneau, Alaska, so this thing isn't making it out of town to a shop unless I fly it out. (There are no roads out of Juneau) There's one repair guy in town who services instruments from all over the region. I happen to know him quite well, so I'll ask him his thoughts when he gets back into town this coming week and see what he has to say about his limitations repair-wise. I have a feeling that he's going to say he can replace the part if he can get one and otherwise make it "playable," but there's no way his small enterprise has a stock room of 2XJ parts It could also be that he has the ability to repair this part, but I won't know until I take it to him.

As for quick fixes, sealing it up with duct tape seems to work okay. I've never played a quality/un-damaged 20J before, so I have no way of comparing what it sounds like with what it COULD sound like. It seems comparable to the 3-valvers I played back in middle school.

This definitely is not nor will be my 8hr/day horn. I have a nice CC for that purpose. In fact, it's not me that will likely end up playing it the most; my dad has expressed interest in being able to use it for TubaChristmas and the like.

My main focus with this post is to figure out the likelihood of finding a replacement part if my repair guy says he won't be able to repair the original tubing. If it turns out to be too much of a hassle $$$-wise, my dad might just make the call that he'll either deal with the duct tape or decide to let the highest eBay bidder deal with it...unless someone on HERE wants a project horn

- Stephen

[Dan Schultz]

I live in Juneau, Alaska....

Oh, my! NOW I understand. I don't know of any NEW replacements for that part. There may be a few 'donor' horns around. The closest you might get to finding donor parts could be someone who does the work for the Jacksonville State University marching tuba line. I have three 2XJ's in my shop now but nothing I can part out.

Your guy can probably fix your horn without removing the tube from the horn if he has magnetic dent tools. That particular area on the 2XJ tubas is usually quite thin since it's on the outside of the bend and also subject to wear/erosion from the players hand. The dent can be taken out but the whole area should be 'torched up' first to anneal the brass so it won't crack or break any further. Once the dent is taken out, a cap can be made to go over the damaged area. If your guy doesn't have the 'stuff' to make an adequate patch for the area... give me a shout while I have these three 2XJ's in my shop. Maybe I can fab something to send to you.

[sloan]

Here's where those calipers will come in handy.

A poll for the serious metal-jockeys:

a) what measurements would you need to build a replacement part, from scratch?

b) what raw materials would you order (assuming that you have *nothing* to start with)?

c) what tools would you use?

d) how long would it take?

e) what would you charge (retail)?

[Rick Denney]

If your local tech doesn't want to take on the repair, ask how much he would charge to remove and later replace that bow. It's an easy removal, it seems to me, with ferrules on either side of it. Then, send it to one of the techs on the board, let them rehabilitate that part, and then have your guy refit it to the instrument.

He will have to make adjustments to other solder joints to make it fit, but he would have to do that with a new part in any case.

You could always take it down to the dock and sell it to a cruise-ship tourist, heh, heh.



And if that doesn't work, you can see what kind of range you have from the same dock.

Rick "who'd wrap it up with tape and see if the tuba is worth the trouble" Denney

[smyoung]

Haha, well unfortunately tourist season is now over, so I'd have to wait until May to sell it to someone off of a cruise ship. I could try to bribe a state legislator with it, though...

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll have my guy take a look at it and see what he says about taking it off/putting it back on and have someone else do the repair job.

- Stephen "Who would probably have to fill the tuba with cash if he wanted to bribe a legislator" Young

[iiipopes]

As I have done with a couple of leaks myself until I could find the time to get to a tech to have it repaired properly, I would cover the hole with a small piece of golfer's lead tape, the kind used to add extra weight to the backs of golf clubs. It has good adhesive, it's waterproof, but will come right off when it's time to actually repair the section properly. It's also relatively cheap, even if you have to order it in.

I'm with Rick Denney. If your local repairman doesn't want to actually work on the repair, just have him unsolder the part, and send it to one of the guys on the forum for @$10.00 USPS priority mail "if it fits - it ships" boxes wrapping the part with good bubble wrap. Any one of them can either repair it, or if there is just too much fatigue in the metal, find a part in the back of a drawer or make a new one that should fit right in, assuming your tech removes it without warping it further.

You are so close to having a classic tuba playable, it's worth this extra step. Remember the old adage: "For want of a nail the shoe was lost, for want of a shoe...."

I know you don't want to lose out.

[Dan Schultz]

.....Remember the old adage: "For want of a nail the shoe was lost, for want of a shoe...."

Is that a Missouri thing?

[tbn.al]

.....Remember the old adage: "For want of a nail the shoe was lost, for want of a shoe...."

Is that a Missouri thing?

I don't believe there was anyone in Missouri in the 14th century who had the means to write this down.

[iiipopes]

.....Remember the old adage: "For want of a nail the shoe was lost, for want of a shoe...."

Is that a Missouri thing?

I don't believe there was anyone in Missouri in the 14th century who had the means to write this down.

Ha! And I'm not sure there are that many now, given the status of public education in this state! But that's another rant for another time.

For want of a bow the tuba was lost; for want of a tuba the band was lost; for....