3+1-compers EEb

[tubeast]

Hello people,

as far as I know, quite a few people use above mentioned instruments as their main horns for any purpose.
I understand the 4th valve on these horns will sort-of turn the EEb into a 3-valved BBb tuba.
I´d expect most of these horns to be equipped with MONSTER triggering opportunities (tricky with both hands engaged in valve-operation) or superior false tones.
Otherwise the ever-so-frequent F1 and an occasional E1 would be tough to play, won´t they ?

The one tuba with this valve setup AND a custom-built main-slide trigger operated with the left thumb that I´ve seen was a Besson BBb. How come the trigger doesn´t seem to be a common gadget on superior level compers ? Am I missing something ?

[Bob Kolada]

A few people I know have new Besson euphs with a left thumb kicker for the 4th slide. If I were to have a kicker put on a 3+1 tuba, it would probably be on the 3rd slide to minimize difficulty. With a trigger in place it shouldn't take too long to make pushing it second nature for the bottom 2 notes.


As to why they don't more commonly have them, I have no idea.

I was considering getting a trigger put on my Giant's 4th slide (4 front action pistons, short 2nd slide, 4th is at the bottom) but then I discovered I could play A natural open quite easily.

[imperialbari]

At least my 1999-made Besson 981 Eb has a fairly short main tuning slide, which I often have pulled to its safe limits anyway. So even if I have good experiences with the main tuning slide trigger on my YEP-641 euph, I have not had something similar added to the 981,

Steven Mead advocates strongly for a trigger being on the main tuning slide rather than on the 3rd valve slide. Obviously because it can be used with any fingering, and also because a 3rd slide trigger needs the 3rd valve to be vented for the trigger to be effective. I have considered the 3rd slide trigger and piston venting, but I rather will take a BBb bass when these notes are required.

Some players pull their 3 slide somewhat. That makes as little sense as pulling the 3rd compensating loop somewhat, as the only effect is the skewing of more notes than the original Blaikley system causes being wrong.

One solution for certain passages is about tuning0 the 3rd valve a semitone down and tune the 3rd comp loop accordingly. That doesn’t solve the problem, but it gives more notes that are better in tune. Only fingering becomes less intuitive.

Klaus

[Wyvern]

Triggers are very rare, or unknown on EEb tubas in the UK. I played a 981 for many years and never really felt the need. One can lip the low E and F acceptably well into tune in my experience.

[imperialbari]

Triggers are very rare, or unknown on EEb tubas in the UK. I played a 981 for many years and never really felt the need. One can lip the low E and F acceptably well into tune in my experience.

I do not disagree with you. Lipping is easier on the 981 than on the comparing notes on a euph. Only it is hard to lip and play loud at the same time, if one isn’t a sykologist.

Klaus

[sloan]

Hello people,

as far as I know, quite a few people use above mentioned instruments as their main horns for any purpose.

That's perhaps a tad extreme. They are certainly a good middle-of-the-road approach, able to at least *approach* the extremes (in the hands of a good player).

I have a modified 1970's Besson 3+1 compensating EEb (the mod is essentially a new BIG bell). I'm still learning my way around it, so take my opinion with a block of salt.

I understand the 4th valve on these horns will sort-of turn the EEb into a 3-valved BBb tuba.

Well, "sort-of" is probably accurate. In about the same way that the 4th valve on a BBb turns it into a 3-valve FF. With 4-th valve compensation, you get the bonus that the EEb with the 4th valve down is just about as in tune as an ordinary 3-valve BBb.
There are times when it is tempting to just hold down the 4th valve and let your BBb fingers take over. But, strangely enough, it hasn't come up all that much.

I´d expect most of these horns to be equipped with MONSTER triggering opportunities (tricky with both hands engaged in valve-operation) or superior false tones.
Otherwise the ever-so-frequent F1 and an occasional E1 would be tough to play, won´t they ?

When I acquired this EEb, it had a tuning stick grafted onto the main tuning slide. It just got in my way, and I had it removed. I haven't missed it.

The one tuba with this valve setup AND a custom-built main-slide trigger operated with the left thumb that I´ve seen was a Besson BBb. How come the trigger doesn´t seem to be a common gadget on superior level compers ? Am I missing something ?

I don't see that many E1's (I've seen more D1's lately than E1's), but F1 isn't uncommon. On the other hand, *I* only play the EEb in a section where there is at least one (usually 2) BBbs who are happy to play the low Fs and happy to let me play the F one octave up (this has the dual advantages that the articulation is improved AND the note sounds deeper and richer). If I have a *lot* of notes below BBb, I'd rather have a BBb in my lap than the EEb (but, recall my caveat that I'm still learning my way here - I've heard several other players who can play lower and better on an EEb than I ever will on any horn.

As it turns out, when I took my EEb to bloke for CL&A, he noticed that there were 3 (count'em 3) notes that he felt were "out of tune". F#, F, and E (at the bottom). He noticed that they all involved one loop - the #3 compensating loop. A lesser man might have cleaned up the tuning stick and put it back on. Instead, he chose this solution:

http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/New3rd.jpg

Here's a view showing that the new slide *starts* where the old one left off. The original slide is placed on top of the new slide:

http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/oldAndNew3rd.jpg

I don't think I should really report how it came to be that I got the *entire* slide nickle-plated at no extra charge. It does look pretty...

[Dan Schultz]

A few people I know have new Besson euphs with a left thumb kicker for the 4th slide. If I were to have a kicker put on a 3+1 tuba, it would probably be on the 3rd slide to minimize difficulty. With a trigger in place it shouldn't take too long to make pushing it second nature for the bottom 2 notes.


As to why they don't more commonly have them, I have no idea.

To get the same amount of pitch change on a BBb tuba as you do on a Bb euphonium.... the 'kicker' has to move the main slide TWICE as far. That's a LOT of motion!

[peter birch]

Hello people,

as far as I know, quite a few people use above mentioned instruments as their main horns for any purpose.
I understand the 4th valve on these horns will sort-of turn the EEb into a 3-valved BBb tuba.

the 4th valve turns an Eb tuba into Bb tuba in the same way that the 1st valve turns it into a Db tuba and so on for all the other valves. Trombones with triggers are described as Bb/F, I don't know enough about trombones to discuss the significance of that description.
I don't know of anyone in the UK who would want to keep the 4th valve down and use Bb fingering.
As for tuning triggers, there are rumours that Besson are adding an Eb tuba to their Prestige line, that will have a 17" bell and a tuning trigger (as well as the gold trimmings).

[ken k]

Hello people,
As it turns out, when I took my EEb to bloke for CL&A, he noticed that there were 3 (count'em 3) notes that he felt were "out of tune". F#, F, and E (at the bottom). He noticed that they all involved one loop - the #3 compensating loop. A lesser man might have cleaned up the tuning stick and put it back on. Instead, he chose this solution:

http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/New3rd.jpg

Here's a view showing that the new slide *starts* where the old one left off. The original slide is placed on top of the new slide:

http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/oldAndNew3rd.jpg

I don't think I should really report how it came to be that I got the *entire* slide nickle-plated at no extra charge. It does look pretty...

OK now i see what I need. I keep my 3rd valve comp slide pulled out to a hair of falling off. Bloke, can you make another????

ken k

[jon112780]

On my 983 Eb, I just went to the hardware store and bought a little baggie of washers. I seem to remember they come in packages of 16 or so...

Just put half on one side of the 3rd compensating slide and half on the other. Now the slide will probably wobble a bit being 'not too far in', so just take a thick rubber band and loop it around the tiny brace that connects the 3rd and 4th pistons. Then pull it down and wrap it around the 3rd compensating slide 'pull ring', and it'll stay in place.

This is quick and only costs a buck or two for the washers, a 'borrowed' rubber band , and the gas used to go to the hardware store.

[ken k]

On my 983 Eb, I just went to the hardware store and bought a little baggie of washers. I seem to remember they come in packages of 16 or so...

Just put half on one side of the 3rd compensating slide and half on the other. Now the slide will probably wobble a bit being 'not too far in', so just take a thick rubber band and loop it around the tiny brace that connects the 3rd and 4th pistons. Then pull it down and wrap it around the 3rd compensating slide 'pull ring', and it'll stay in place.

This is quick and only costs a buck or two for the washers, a 'borrowed' rubber band , and the gas used to go to the hardware store.

can you please post a picture?
k

[ken k]

i got that.
i also got the rubber band.
i do not get the washers????
k

[peter birch]

I have played a variety of EEb compensated instruments, including Imperials, new standards, soveriegns and my current instrument the Courtois, over the last 30 years or so. I have to say that I have not seen any players in the UK, going to the extent of using washers, duct tape and elastic bands on the tuning slides.
they all have their idiosyncracies, some of which are liked and some not, and tuning is, of course relative, for instance, in my band the tubas are a little sharp relative to the trombones but a little flat relative to the euphoniums (and of course it is always their fault), but usually the 2 euphs 5 tubas and 5 trombones manage to agree on tuning without too much difficulty.
same thing applies in the orchestra with the brass section and the basses and low woodwind.
the Courtois has an extra tuning slide on the 1st valve compensating tube, which is useful below Bb, but otherwise we don't see problems that require such measures, or are we missing something?

[jon112780]

Ah, I forgot to mention in my original post that the washers are the 'hard, black, rubber kind.'

Kind of important if the size of your slide is not EXACTLY the same size as the 'easily found washers'. Just to be safe, get washers that are a tad small/tight, and they will stay on pretty tight.

Sorry for any confusion.