Bb Vs CC in orchestras

[jon112780]

The key or size of the horn isn't nearly as important as how it plays.

You can get used to pretty much anything if you want to (big/little, piston/rotor, F/Eb/CC/BBb, etc), so find one that plays great. Don't make compromises on this.

I went until the second year of my MM with only a Besson 983 Eb. I've owned a handful of contrabass tubas, but never played them even a quarter as much as my small horn.

Why? My Eb is an awesome horn. Flexibility, intonation, sound, it's all there. Sure, it's a little small for the orchestral stuff (Ride, Fountians, etc), but I don't play orchestral literature much anymore.

Also, the mouthpiece MIGHT be a factor in how you approach a horn. Bring along a couple when you try horns.

Go to CMC, WWBW, Dillons, etc; and play ALL HORNS WITHOUT BIAS OR PREJUDICE. Then pick out the one in your price range that plays the best, and can be used for 99% of your playing.

I'd rather have a excellent horn in a key I'm not used to (and would have to learn), than an average horn in the same key I'm used to playing in.

With a good, professional horn, and THOUSANDS of hours in the practice room; you should do just fine.

[The Jackson]

Use the "Advanced Search" function on this form to look at the Haunted Mansion-like discussions that have taken place here on this very issue.

I think the most important part of buying a tuba (especially if it will be your only tuba for quite a while) is to just buy a GOOD-PLAYING one, regardless of key. I've haven't played a whole lot of "professional" orchestral literature, but I'd confidently say that the difference in pitches (Bb v. C) is going to be negligible. The audience is not going to care what kind of tuba you play and, most times, I'd say, the conductor also doesn't care about what kind of tuba you play. The most important thing is that whatever play sounds great.

[Rick Denney]

This is one of the eternal debates in the tuba world, right up there with piston versus rotary valves and lacquer versus silver.

German orchestral tuba players routinely use Bb for their contrabass, and F for their bass tuba, with the bass tuba being the normally used instrument.

In England, the tuba player usually uses a large Eb tuba for everything, though some are demonstrating the advantages of a big contrabass for some works at least.

In the U.S., common practice is to use a C tuba for orchestra, but there are many exceptions, and even C tuba players will occasionally use a Bb as the need arises.

There is nothing preventing a Bb tuba player from fulfilling all contrabass tuba requirements in an orchestra.

But there are some "buts". One is that tuba players who seriously expect to win an orchestral position must be the sorts of players who can make just about anything work. I never heard the likes of Gene Pokorny, who has on occasion used a Bb tuba in the CSO, complain that he didn't want to use a Bb because he didn't know the fingerings. That excuse only works for hobbyists like me.

And excuses of any sort tend to attract suspicion from professors, so anyone reluctant to add a new tuba pitch to their capabilities had better be able to demonstrate such total master of their instrument that nobody cares what is its pitch.

Also, while there are great Bb tubas out there, there are even greater C tubas (when we limit the choices to what's available on any given day), and more different kinds of great C tubas. It took me years to find Bb tubas of the caliber of the best C tubas that can be bought this year, right now.

So, examine your motives and objectives, none of which you have revealed here. If you are a hobbyist with an opportunity to play in the local amateur orchestra, any tuba that you can play well will work. If you are a music-ed major wanting a tuba for your own ultimate use but still needing it for college ensembles and other required activities, a Bb tuba is completely defensible. But if you are a performance major, or want to be, then you'll eventually need to be able to move between different pitches without much hindrance. I would suggest a C if you don't have any other preference, because that's what will be expected of you in most programs.

Rick "noting that German Bb orchestra tuba players pay much more for their high-end Bb tubas than do American Bb hobbyists" Denney

[bort]

Which is better to use in a symphony a Bb or a CC tuba? Is their one advantage one of the keys have over the other? Is it ok to use a Bb tubas as your main for symphonies over a CC which is very common in symphonies?

One advantage -- if you buy a CC, people won't say "aren't you serious? Why don't you have a CC?"

[TUBAD83]

Which is better to use in a symphony a Bb or a CC tuba? Is their one advantage one of the keys have over the other? Is it ok to use a Bb tubas as your main for symphonies over a CC which is very common in symphonies?

One advantage -- if you buy a CC, people won't say "aren't you serious? Why don't you have a CC?"

Another advantage is to ignore and avoid people who would make such statements

[windshieldbug]

Orchestrally, only the bass trombone player will ever ask you what key tuba you're playing.

I've never heard anyone else remark about a horn unless I was playing an ophicleide.

The conductor MAY ask you to go smaller/larger but won't care how you get there.
And neither should you.
Tuba parts have been written for an amazing array of instruments.
Your job is to give the conductor what they want.
How you get there is your problem, only.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

.....Also, the mouthpiece MIGHT be a factor in how you approach a horn. Bring along a couple when you try horns.

I'm not sure that I would second that recommendation.

You can bring all the mouthpieces you want, but scientifically speaking, if you add in the variable of different mouthpieces into the process, I think it would only make your selection of a horn, more difficult.

[Dean E]

.....Also, the mouthpiece MIGHT be a factor in how you approach a horn. Bring along a couple when you try horns.

I'm not sure that I would second that recommendation.

You can bring all the mouthpieces you want, but scientifically speaking, if you add in the variable of different mouthpieces into the process, I think it would only make your selection of a horn, more difficult.

However, some very good mouthpieces may cause a particular horn to play out of tune, which your tuner will show. A different mouthpiece may work well with the instrument, making it slot perfectly.

Some common characteristics of various mouthpieces are squirreliness in high notes and difficulty producing low notes.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Yes, that is true, but imagine the permutations of trying out 8 tubas with 3 different mouthpieces. You would have data from 240 different scenarios to compare!

"Apples to apples" comparisons become much more difficult, as well.

[TUBUD]

If you are playing your tuba of choice and someone has to ask " What key is that in? " how much differnce can it make?

[sloan]

Yes, that is true, but imagine the permutations of trying out 8 tubas with 3 different mouthpieces. You would have data from 240 different scenarios to compare!

"Apples to apples" comparisons become much more difficult, as well.

It's clear to see why analyzing all of this data might be challenging, to you.

[oedipoes]

Yes, that is true, but imagine the permutations of trying out 8 tubas with 3 different mouthpieces. You would have data from 240 different scenarios to compare!

"Apples to apples" comparisons become much more difficult, as well.

It's clear to see why analyzing all of this data might be challenging, to you.

yip, permutations can be tricky

[The Big Ben]

However, some very good mouthpieces may cause a particular horn to play out of tune, which your tuner will show. A different mouthpiece may work well with the instrument, making it slot perfectly.

I would think one way of picking a test mouthpiece is to ask an experienced user of the horn you want to test. This user could tell you what worked and you could try that one for starters.

[Rick Denney]

Yes, that is true, but imagine the permutations of trying out 8 tubas with 3 different mouthpieces. You would have data from 240 different scenarios to compare!

My observation of orchestra professionals reveals that they tend to make decisions about instruments after the following has taken place:

1. They have played the instrument enough to be able to manage its idiosyncrasies (and they all have them).

2. They have found a mouthpiece that works well with the instrument.

3. They have tested the sound of the instrument in their orchestra, and in their hall.

4. They have solicited the opinions of musicians with whom they perform.

They may buy a tuba after a brief trial at a conference, but they will only decide to keep it after going through the above steps. If the instrument fails at any point, they either send it back or sell it. They may continue that process through a number of instruments before finding the one that suits them, or they may get lucky and find their ideal instrument first time.

So, yes, they eventually work their way through those permutations, until they are successful in their search.

Rick "noting very few orchestra pros who are playing the same instruments they played 10 years ago, and fewer still who are playing the tuba on which they won their gig" Denney

[Rick Denney]

If you are playing your tuba of choice and someone has to ask " What key is that in? " how much differnce can it make?

Yup. The first time I showed up in my current band, I brought my York Master tuba. The music director introduced himself at the end of the rehearsal, and then asked me if it was a C tuba. He was either thinking that I sounded like a C tuba player (not likely), or he was thinking that C tuba deserved a better player (likely). Either way, he could not tell either by listening or by looking what I was playing. He is a very high-end professional tuba player, by the way, who will now insist, if you ask him, that Bb and C tubas sound different.

Rick " " Denney

[sloan]

If you are playing your tuba of choice and someone has to ask " What key is that in? " how much differnce can it make?

Yup. The first time I showed up in my current band, I brought my York Master tuba. The music director introduced himself at the end of the rehearsal, and then asked me if it was a C tuba. He was either thinking that I sounded like a C tuba player (not likely), or he was thinking that C tuba deserved a better player (likely). Either way, he could not tell either by listening or by looking what I was playing. He is a very high-end professional tuba player, by the way, who will now insist, if you ask him, that Bb and C tubas sound different.

Rick " " Denney

Perhaps he was wondering how you managed to make a C tuba sound like *that*!

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Yes, that is true, but imagine the permutations of trying out 8 tubas with 3 different mouthpieces. You would have data from 240 different scenarios to compare!

My observation of orchestra professionals reveals that they tend to make decisions about instruments after the following...

...So, yes, they eventually work their way through those permutations, until they are successful in their search.

Yes, of course you are correct, Rick. When stretching the process out, over time, it becomes a more managable approach.

If, as is implied by previous posts, you are sitting in the middle of a store like Dillons, one afternoon, comparing the 15 CC tubas that are surrounding you, adding different mouthpieces in the process, can cloud that comparison.

For heaven's sake! Just finding the correct mouthpiece that works best for one horn, can take hours, by itself!

[Steve Marcus]

The music director...could not tell either by listening or by looking what I was playing [BBb or CC].

He is a very high-end professional tuba player

Those two statements seem to contradict each other. If he is that accomplished a musician and was curious about whether you were playing a BBb or CC tuba, he should have been able to tell by watching your fingering. He didn't even have to match the pitch with your fingering by ear--he had the score right in front of him showing him what note you were playing at any given time!

Steve "it's not important who that music director was--in fact, don't name him" Marcus

[Steve Marcus]

The music director...could not tell either by listening or by looking what I was playing [BBb or CC].

Steve:

Visualize your physical appearance in a large ensemble from the perspective of a conductor's podium:

- part of your head

...although my head is lower than Rick's because he's considerably taller than I...

- one side of a tuba mouthpiece
- a big tuba bell
- the back side of a black music stand

Point taken. I may be more fanatic than some at times when I am curious about the key of a tubist's horn. I'll try to sit/stand at the appropriate angle and/or watch the video so that I can track what valves are being pressed. It's a trivial matter, but there it is.

[windshieldbug]

My observation of orchestra professionals reveals that they tend to make decisions about instruments after the following has taken place:

1. They have played the instrument enough to be able to manage its idiosyncrasies (and they all have them).

2. They have found a mouthpiece that works well with the instrument.

3. They have tested the sound of the instrument in their orchestra, and in their hall.

4. They have solicited the opinions of musicians with whom they perform.

They may buy a tuba after a brief trial at a conference, but they will only decide to keep it after going through the above steps. If the instrument fails at any point, they either send it back or sell it. They may continue that process through a number of instruments before finding the one that suits them, or they may get lucky and find their ideal instrument first time.

What he said. If you want a good instrument, playing it once is not enough to pick it out. If for no other reason than to confirm the horn/mouthpiece combination with your chops under different conditions. Remember, you're going to live with this instrument for quite a while unless you're Sam Walton-type wealthy... and I went to school with more than a couple people who made an unfortunate first choice that felt good at the time!