just a bit flat

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Re: just a bit flat

Post by Rick Denney »

sloan wrote:All of this leads to the conclusion that this is a perfectly normal scale found on many A=435 horns.

Now for the Homework: how much do you remove from the main tuning slide to raise an Eb bugle from A=435 to A=440? To my un-educated eye, there seems to be plenty of main tuning slide to play with.

So...what did I get wrong?
The problem is that you originally suggested the basic instrument was 50 cents flat--half a semitone. But the change in frequency from A435 to A440 is only 20 cents. 20 cents on an Eb tuba requires about 1.8" of tubing change, or 0.9" of pull (or push).

(440-435)/435 = 0.0115--the ratio of the change in frequency.

0.0115 / 0.0595 = 0.193--about 0.19 semitones, or 19 cents. (0.0595 is the ratio of the change in frequencies required to make a change of one semitone.)

(0.0115)(13 feet)(12 inches/foot) = 1.79 inches (the ratio of the change in frequencies equals the ratio of the change in bugle length.)

Rick "wondering where those other 30 cents went" Denney
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Re: just a bit flat

Post by sloan »

Rick Denney wrote:

The problem is that you originally suggested the basic instrument was 50 cents flat--half a semitone. But the change in frequency from A435 to A440 is only 20 cents. 20 cents on an Eb tuba requires about 1.8" of tubing change, or 0.9" of pull (or push).

(440-435)/435 = 0.0115--the ratio of the change in frequency.

0.0115 / 0.0595 = 0.193--about 0.19 semitones, or 19 cents. (0.0595 is the ratio of the change in frequencies required to make a change of one semitone.)

(0.0115)(13 feet)(12 inches/foot) = 1.79 inches (the ratio of the change in frequencies equals the ratio of the change in bugle length.)

Rick "wondering where those other 30 cents went" Denney
Round off, and "engineering margin of error".

At A=440, the pitch is "almost 50cents flat" (specified to 1 significant digit...) and at A=435 the pitch is "almost at par (but still a bit flat)".

Notice that I said that at A=435 it was "within lipping range". Now, for me, that's pretty close - but it's not perfect.

When planning *where* to cut, it's probably best to overestimate the cut.

When actually preparing to cut, it might be best to UNDERestimate the cut (on the theory that you can always cut again but it's difficult to lengthen tubing (unless, of course, you have sufficient tuning slide slop to work with.

We've now seen estimates of "about 1 inch on each side" to "about 2 1/2 inches on each side". Now...the 1 inch estimate is surely low because it doesn't account for other needs (partly the round off and partly my desire to have a little bit of "push" headroom in the final setting of the tuning slide. The "2 1/2 inch" estimate feels just a bit long, but I suspect there's a bit of "engineering margin of error" built into that number, too.

Not to mention that the number you started with as the "length of the Eb bugle" is a very coarse estimate to begin with (recall that we're dealing with a hybrid conical-cylindrical beast further modified by bell and mouthpiece - NOT a simple tube or string). But, no need to mention that - the amount of slop in that number is well within the amount of slop that can be handled by any decent tuning slide - which is why we don't have to actually calculate the real length (and a good thing, too) - that's what tuning slides (and trial and error before going into mass production) are for!

For those playing at home, what experiment can you run (without any math, and without any trial cutting) to determine (to first order) the amount to cut, when all you have is a tuning slide that can only pull? I'll allow the use of a decent tuner, but no other equipment, for a change in pitch something less than 50cents.

[on the question of how big the cut will end up being - I'll set the betting line at 2" (on each side) - everyone has until Saturday to take either the "over" or the "under"]
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Re: just a bit flat

Post by sloan »

bloke wrote:So-called "precise" calculations can be made by using a formula that involves the 12th root of 2.

I quit messing around with the math long ago, because when I would cut the amount indicated in the equation, it was never quite right.
Indeed. In this (very special) case, I think it's best to "measure once, cut twice".
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Re: just a bit flat

Post by imperialbari »

Which mouthpiece did you use?

How much did you cut off the tubing?

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Re: just a bit flat

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bloke wrote:I've addressed all of Dr. Sloan's concerns with this instrument.
Indeed. It now fits my face *and* my inadequate playing ability - without actually cutting any "original" equipment.

The (probably not original) gooseneck was shortened (less than an inch) and slightly bent so that the mouthpiece actually makes it to my mouth withOUT resorting to a bit. The main tuning slide was rebuilt (using some of the original parts - the ones most difficult to fabricate - and a few pieces of tubing from the spare parts bin. A little bit of shaping and fitting, and voila! - a brand new tuning slide perhaps an inch shorter than the old one.

The guts (including a connecting brace not needed for the new slide) were untouched, and will go into *my* spare parts bin (along with the Besson #3 tuning slide that bloke replaced on my last visit) - against the day when someone wants to rebuild the original tuning slide. No irreversible steps were taken, so it wasn't a bris, or even a vasectomy. If the tuning slide is ever rebuilt, perhaps the minor crack will be fixed... the bore increases as you round the bend (from one semi-standard bore to another), which means that bloke needed that part of the original tuning slide to construct the new one. But, with a little bit of heat, the original (actually, bloke has some doubts about how "original" it is) can be reconstructed.

With the gooseneck mods, and all slides all the way in, bloke can play it right at A=440 with no lipping (or, so he claims). In my feeble hands, it was closer (perhaps within community band tolerances) but not quite there. That, and the fact that the slides were all-the-way-in, convinced me to ask for the tuning slide rebuild (I hesitate to call it a "cut" - more like "what can we make out of the parts after we take it apart and scrounge the tubing drawers"). Now, I can play it at A=440 with a very slight pull - which is exactly my preference.

All of the individual valve tuning slides are still all the way in, and #3 is definitely a bit long - but that's just perfect, because I typically *only* use #3 in combinations (which therefore tend to be sharp). I often pull #3 to be long - on this horn it was "tuned the way Sloan likes it at the factory". I suppose if I were pickier about my own intonation it's also nice to have a "long" 3 and a "short" 1-2, but that's purely a theoretical issue, for me. In particular, the 1-3 low Bb is perfectly in tune with the open 2nd line Bb.

The low Eb is still "saggy" - I'm not sure by how much. I previously thought that the false tones started a full step below "low 1-2-3" and had been calling that "G". With all the changes, it's probably now an Ab. I suspect the interval from that Ab to the A is just a bit more than a semi-tone - but now it's the A that's slightly off (sharp, as you'd expect).

All this, plus the work done on my older, smaller bore Eb helicon (my research led me to believe it was built around 1895 by someone associated with H.N. White - bloke took one look and declared it to be vaguely "Austrian looking"), will be on display at the Nashville TubaChristmas on Tuesday. Since the "other helicon" has this interesting property of emitting from the bell whatever note you buzz (with very little in the way of a suggestion about where the note really ought to be), my more talented, trombone-playing son will get that one. He has trained ears and lips. I get to play the endearly cute Buescher (which probably now fits *only* my face).

And now the fun part: one of my original motivations for coming up to speed on Eb was to play the Tuba I parts in arrangements such as the TubaChristmas book. Well, I've been playing through them, and I've decided that:

a) they are still just a bit out of my comfort zone, and
b) I really don't like those parts very much - certainly much less than I like the
Tuba II parts.

This is an old observation, but since I'm going through it I might as well report it: on the surface, it seems like I should be able to play higher on an Eb horn than a BBb. What I've found is that INITIALLY this is true (somewhat). But...if I then take the opportunity to spend more time playing "up there", I find that those notes magically appear from nowhere on the BBb, as well. I suppose most people who've been through it know this - but it's sufficiently counter-intuitive to be interesting, to me.


So...I'll be playing the Buescher, but I'll be playing the Tuba II parts. I've only found a few places where those false tones will come in handy... (note that it works the other way around, too - I'm sure that my LOW range on the Eb Buescher is informed and improved by all the time I spend playing BBb contrabasses. One hand does indeed wash the other.

I think it's fair to say that ONE of the reasons I like the Buescher is that (in my hands) it sounds more like a "tuba" than the "Symphony" helicon does (in my hands). And, both before and after the surgery, the Buescher plays much more in tune with itself than the "Symphony" (even according to bloke). And now...I can play it "in-tune" with the rest of the ensemble.
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Re: just a bit flat

Post by imperialbari »

Old Austrian piston helicons hardly ever were common, as Austria up to the more recent decades was rotors-mostly-if-not-exclusively. However money is said to be a good motivator, and J. W. Jemkins Sons Music Co. in Kansa City - Missouri imported piston instruments from Aug. Heinem in Austria. Here a 1910 Eb helicon:
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Re: just a bit flat

Post by imperialbari »

Disassembled.jpg
What looks European in this instrument?

All slide knuckles on the same side of the valve block may be found on early American circlophoniums as may the long tuning slide in the leadpipe, but at least the Buescher’s had the leadpipe coming the other way round and entering the 1st valve. The bell stay also looks European, but the most European element to me is the wide diameter of the bell stack and the last part of the back bow versus the moderate bell flare.

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Re: just a bit flat

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sloan wrote:We've now seen estimates of "about 1 inch on each side" to "about 2 1/2 inches on each side". Now...the 1 inch estimate is surely low because it doesn't account for other needs (partly the round off and partly my desire to have a little bit of "push" headroom in the final setting of the tuning slide. The "2 1/2 inch" estimate feels just a bit long, but I suspect there's a bit of "engineering margin of error" built into that number, too.

Not to mention that the number you started with as the "length of the Eb bugle" is a very coarse estimate to begin with (recall that we're dealing with a hybrid conical-cylindrical beast further modified by bell and mouthpiece - NOT a simple tube or string). But, no need to mention that - the amount of slop in that number is well within the amount of slop that can be handled by any decent tuning slide - which is why we don't have to actually calculate the real length (and a good thing, too) - that's what tuning slides (and trial and error before going into mass production) are for!
Here's the question you asked:
Now for the Homework: how much do you remove from the main tuning slide to raise an Eb bugle from A=435 to A=440?
That's the question I answered. I did not suggest that this would be the correct amount to bring this instrument up to pitch for you as the player. I did suggest that the evidence you provided was self-contradictory.

The estimate of the bugle length doesn't change the answer significantly. It is easily within 10% one way or the other (enough to range from F tuba to D tuba), and the difference in tuning slide length of 0.9" becomes a range of 0.81 to 0.99" at +/- 10%. Not significant at all in the context of your question. And I did report my answer with a single significant figure.

And, yes, 50 is one significant figure. Which makes it different than 40 or 60 but not necessarily different than 45 or 55. But that significant figure is enough to make it different than 20.

And if Joe's estimate of 2-1/2" was based on your original post with the instrument 50 cents flat, then that would require the 2-1/2" slide cut he thought might be needed. My calculation was based on the difference between A435 and A440, as you requested.

Rick "glad you got the instrument working correctly for you" Denney
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Re: just a bit flat

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For the curious, here: http://www.cis.uab.edu/sloan/newHeliconParts.jpg
is a picture of the alterations. I had rather strict time constraints - what you are looking at took perhaps 3-4 hours of planning and execution. The rest of the day was spent de-denting both helicons and fitting *precisely* the correct synthetic felts. I fear these are not "authentic", so reconstruction purists may be offended. The end result is that both helicons play a whole lot better (at least, for me).

The picture shows: a) the re-shaped and shortened gooseneck (sorry, no "before" picture), b) the new tuning slide, and c) the part left untouched from the old tuning slide - hopefully I've positioned it so you can see how much shorter the new one is.

Again - none of the original parts of the original tuning slide were cut. If necessary and desirable, it can be put back the way it was. I'm afraid I can't say the same for the gooseneck. But then, the gooseneck may not have been original equipment in the first place. For that matter, I'm not all that certain about the tuning slide, either... In any event, I bought it so I could play it - not mount it in a display case.

When I get back home (and have a better camera available), I'll start a new thread on the "other" helicon. It should be fun watching Rick and Klaus (and others) pick apart the various clues to the age and origins of that one. I thought that I had it pretty well narrowed down, but now I'm not so sure.
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Re: just a bit flat

Post by sloan »

bloke wrote:Kenneth,

Compare the engraving style on Klaus' Austrian helicon to yours that I suspect is also Austrian.

Without concentrating on any other features, the engraving is contained yet highly detailed (same style, imo) on both your helicon and the one in Klaus' picture.

bloke "yeah...and I've hardly ever seen a 'peashooter' Austrian-made tuba-like instrument that wasn't nickel plated as well"
Do most Austrian-made peashooter tuba-like instruments have the inscription "Reg. U.S. Pat. Off."?

Does anyone know how to search the US Patent Offices files?
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Re: just a bit flat

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I have no idea about how big that Kansas City Mo. import company was in the market, but they may have acted wisely by protecting their share by patenting whatever detail in the US. Today’s Chinese factories will put whatever engraving on their instruments that will increase their (perceived) market share. The Europeans weren’t and aren’t better. Within the last decade we have seen the B&S sole importer in Detroit being circumvented by Schmidt/Schneider/whatever branded BBb tubas promoted through a now defunct Dallas dealership.

I may have seen photos of the actual Eb helicon worked on by bloke, but I don’t remember it specifically. If I see photos, I may see details pointing towards a geographic region. Already now I wonder how the tuning slide is placed in the architecture. From old Buescher’s (like the one bloke turned into CC) we know the very wide tuning slide sitting in the leadpipe. From King we know the narrow tuning slide sitting below the 1st slide. From Conn, Eb & BBb, we know the fairly wide dual bore tuning slide sitting after the valve block. This actual tuning also is dual bore, but not nearly as wide as those from Conn.

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Re: just a bit flat

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imperialbari wrote:I have no idea about how big that Kansas City Mo. import company was in the market, but they may have acted wisely by protecting their share by patenting whatever detail in the US. Today’s Chinese factories will put whatever engraving on their instruments that will increase their (perceived) market share. The Europeans weren’t and aren’t better. Within the last decade we have seen the B&S sole importer in Detroit being circumvented by Schmidt/Schneider/whatever branded BBb tubas promoted through a now defunct Dallas dealership.

I may have seen photos of the actual Eb helicon worked on by bloke, but I don’t remember it specifically. If I see photos, I may see details pointing towards a geographic region. Already now I wonder how the tuning slide is placed in the architecture. From old Buescher’s (like the one bloke turned into CC) we know the very wide tuning slide sitting in the leadpipe. From King we know the narrow tuning slide sitting below the 1st slide. From Conn, Eb & BBb, we know the fairly wide dual bore tuning slide sitting after the valve block. This actual tuning also is dual bore, but not nearly as wide as those from Conn.

Klaus
I'm about to drive from Memphis to BHM; the afternoon will be devoted to graduation ceremonies; the evening to a departmental Christmas party. After that, I'll have a chance to post pictures (and measurements - like everyone else, I followed bloke's recent advice and purchased a new set of calipers - hmmm...what would ONE caliper be?).

Key features from examination: tuning slide is before the 3rd valve (the path is directly from the mouthpiece to the 3rd valve); the bell is further away from the player than the loop (this is the reverse of the Buescher, where the bell is closer to the player than the loop); by eye only - I don't see any increase in bore until the tubing leaves the first valve (headed to the rear and downward) and starts to turn into the outer loop. There is one very long brace, with a very slight jog in it that runs as a chord of the loop which supports the valve section. The mouthpipe is supporte by one brace which terminates on this long, chord brace and another which butts against the loop

The only words engraved on the bell are "Symphony" (in very fancy script) and "Reg. U.S. Pat. Off." in a very plain font. These words are surrounded by a wreath with two large branches, two smaller branches a bit further out, a bow (with a series of small dots trailing down from the bow and two ends of ribbon hanging down from the knot of the bow. The "Reg. U.S. Pat. Off." could be original, or it might very easily have been added. I can't find any other markings (valve numbers, serial numbers) - nada, zip, zilch, bupkis.

Please submit your list of "things to measure" and "details to photograph". I'll be back in about 15 hours...
Kenneth Sloan
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Re: just a bit flat

Post by imperialbari »

Many brass instruments’ photos are taken from funny angles either to display (the lack of) dents or for more or less artistic reasons. For me ideal photos rather reflect the blueprints for a given instrument. That is the main plane photographed from front and rear. In some instruments like the Conn 5XJ series side shots are necessary also to display a special 4th valve wrap. With King sousaphones extra shots are necessary to display the relation between the main tuning slide and the 1st slide. Other instruments are special in their own ways.

The hardest part to get photos of often is the engraving. There shall be a good focus and reflections shall be absent.

Some makes like B&S have distinct flanges for carrying rings, thumb ring, and lyre holder. Others have distinct ferrules. bloke always recognizes B&M/Nirschl instruments from their valve blocks (I don’t). Apparently superfluous information sometimes gives the maker and the period away.

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Re: just a bit flat

Post by eupher61 »

J. W. Jemkins Sons Music Co. in Kansa City - Missouri
Actually J.W. Jenkins& Sons in Kansas City, but close enough.

Into the early 20s, Jenkins was a large company in the KC market, small in comparison to, say, Lyon and Healy. They stenciled instruments from Conn and King and Holton among others, or possibly Buescher rather than Conn. I've seen references to Elkhart, Elkhorn, and Cleveland, at least.
They also published a lot of music, including the wonderful rags of Charles Johnson. He published so many great rags that he used pseudonyms to make them more appealing, because who could write that much great music in such a short time?

It seems most of their non-piano sales were purely local. As the Depression and general decline of the love affair with bands went on, they became purely a piano and keyboard dealer. The company was sold to the Schmidt retail company in the 1990s.
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Re: just a bit flat

Post by sloan »

Photos are posted to a new thread: "'Symphony' Eb Helicon".
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