"Symphony" Eb helicon

[sloan]

This is a continuation of a discussion started in "Just a bit flat".

Here: http://www.KennethRSloan.com/Photos/SymphonyHelicon/ is a link to a photogallery documenting an Eb peashooter helicon. The incandescent lighting makes it appear to be brass in most of the images, but it's actually nickel-plated.

The questions are:

a) WHO made it?

b) WHEN?

Bloke reports that the bore is 0.600".

If you need a measurement, just ask. "Have calipers, will measure to order."

Click on any of the thumbnail photos in the gallery to get a full resolution image - which you can then explore using whatever image viewing tools you happen to have.

If you can't make it out the line of text under the large "Symphony" says "Reg. U.S. Pat. Off."

Note that the mouthpipe goes into the 3rd valve, with the main tuning slide coming before the valves. Also note the large brace supporting the valve section .

The most convincing identification wins a free lunch at the Bowling Alley at Ft. Myer.

[David Richoux]

That is VERY similar to my Eb Helicon - there are pictures and a bit of discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33212

I don't see any shots that show the "joggle" in the big brace on your page, but a hint in one view makes me think it has the same shape. There are a few other minor differences in some of the smaller bracing pieces, but the overall shape and bends look the same!

[pgym]

Based on the similarity to the engraving (including the "Reg. U.S. Pat. [Off.]" below the brand) on this (apparently) Czech-made Symphony Mellophone and the visual similarities to the Lyon & Healy Eb helicons on Horn-u-copia, (here and here), I'd guess it's a Czech stencil from the late 19th/early 20th century.

But, then again, what do I know?

[sloan]

That is VERY similar to my Eb Helicon - there are pictures and a bit of discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33212

I don't see any shots that show the "joggle" in the big brace on your page, but a hint in one view makes me think it has the same shape. There are a few other minor differences in some of the smaller bracing pieces, but the overall shape and bends look the same!

You are correct - the brace does take a jog.

[sloan]

That is VERY similar to my Eb Helicon - there are pictures and a bit of discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33212

I don't see any shots that show the "joggle" in the big brace on your page, but a hint in one view makes me think it has the same shape. There are a few other minor differences in some of the smaller bracing pieces, but the overall shape and bends look the same!

I agree that there are many similarities. I'll just note the DIFFERENCES that I see:

a) on mine, the brace takes one sharp jog (near the first valve end) to move closer to the valve section (pretty much like yours) - but then comes back down to the loop in one long slant (almost an arc). Yours takes another sharp jog after the brace's attachment to the valve section.

b) the bells are very different. Yours is a classic "minimal flare" (which looks very "European" to my untrained eye), while mine has a more "American" looking flare (at least, to me).

c) (?) on yours, the tubing leaving the first valve APPEARS to curve smoothly to begin the inner loop - on mine there is a sharp jog to get from the plane at the valve end to the plane of the loop. Yours MAY have the same jog, but I can't really see it in the pictures. It may be that they are similar.

d) mine has NO markings indicating the maker AT ALL (other than the generic "Symphony").

[sloan]

Based on the similarity to the engraving (including the "Reg. U.S. Pat. [Off.]" below the brand) on this (apparently) Czech-made Symphony Mellophone and the visual similarities to the Lyon & Healy Eb helicons on Horn-u-copia, (here and here), I'd guess it's a Czech stencil from the late 19th/early 20th century.

But, then again, what do I know?

The Lyon & Healy pictures are a VERY close match! The only difference I see immediately is the length of the main tuning slide and the 3rd valve loop. On mine, these are inside the loop. The tuning slide is VERY close to the outer edge of the loop and the 3rd valve loop is WELL inside. On the Lyon & Healy versions, the 3rd valve loop appears to go well OUTside the loop (looks pretty exposed!).

Of course, I don't know what surgery might have been inflicted on my sample.

[imperialbari]

The long secant stay is the most remarkable design feature. I have seen it before, but not often. It is too late night for reference work now, and no maker’s name pops up by itself. The engraving is not the same as with the Heinem helicon from Austria.

Klaus

[sloan]

Google found the thread on the old TubeNet from 2002. Here was Klaus's last word on the subject:

Posted by Klaus on October 07, 2002 at 08:28:20:

In Reply to: Re: Re: Symphony brand Eb helicon posted by Kenneth Sloan on October 06, 2002 at 20:33:06:


The instrument is very different from what I assumed in my first reply.

I see it as a sample of an older US design not fully developed as in the later Conns, but definitely having a better approach to the airpath than sousas and helicons out of the European tradition.

The leadpipe/main-tuning-slide set-up also points back to the US about 100 years ago.

Would the experts Rob P-M, Lew, and others kindly drop a word of wisdom?

The 6 pix all have been collected in a folder at the open, non-posting Yahoo site of mine linked to below. As the pics do not come out of my high-resolution-huge-files concept, they should be fairly easy to get.

Klaus

Symphony brand Eb helicon: 6 pics

[Art Hovey]

I rescued an ancient BBb helicon from a tuba graveyard years ago. Although it was much bigger all around it had the same arrangement of valve tubing, which makes me wonder if it could have been by the same maker. Mine was made for Lyon & Healy by Henri Gunkel in Paris.

[Paul Scott]

I also think that this is a Czech made instrument, probably made in the early 20th century. My very first (school-owned tuba) was a Symphony Eb and this instrument has similar braces, bottom valve caps, etc. That instrument was stamped "made in Czechoslovakia" on the valveset.

[imperialbari]

I didn’t remember seeing photos of this Symphony helicon 6 or 7 years ago. But then I have 5000+ instruments documented in my galleries. I probably have seen even more instruments where I didn’t like the documentation..

The piston helicon as a species has been seen in the UK in old military bands. The horn maker Paxman started out in the brass business right after WWI specializing in the conversion of the many then superfluous military helicons into sousaphones, which were much demanded for dance bands. Otherwise these helicons are mostly seen in the US.

The helicon in question doubtless was made for the US market (patent reference), but where was it made? I cannot point to a specific maker until I find a similar instrument with a specific engraving. However the long stay points towards Czechoslovakia.

Of course David’s almost similar instrument is French by its engraving, but then instruments from Central/East Europe also are found in France. Some designs in top piston baritones, alto horns, and small euphoniums since 40 years have had me suspect a connection between the brass makers in the Dutch/French area and in Czechoslovakia. Only I never came to asking the two older repairmen I knew. One is long gone. The other is behind the walls of dementia.

Klaus

[sloan]

The long secant stay is the most remarkable design feature. I have seen it before, but not often. It is too late night for reference work now, and no maker’s name pops up by itself. The engraving is not the same as with the Heinem helicon from Austria.

Klaus

I haven't been able to find it again (I haven't looked all that hard) - but last time around I believe I found some pictures of a helicon attributed to H.N. White which had that same "secant stay". I suppose it's possible H.N. White was importing them from Czechoslovakia.

[imperialbari]

OK, maybe chord would be more precise than secant.

K

[sloan]

Here's something vaguely similar: similar routing of the path though the valves, similar bottom valve caps, similar "chord brace" (this brace looks a bit thicker than mine).

It's labelled as a Wurlitzer. Other sources I've seen (both in 2002 and lately) say that "Symphony" was a Wurlitzer brand name. Other names that came up last time around were Holton and (I'm irritated that I can't find this again, H.N.White).

anyway - look at this horn-u-copia entry:

http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php ... elicon.jpg

[imperialbari]

If I remember right Wurlitzer was more of a import and marketing company than a maker, when it comes to brass. Wurlitzer in German means a person coming from Wurlitz, which happens to be a village or a small town in the north eastern corner of Bavaria, where that German state meets Saxony and Bohemia. Wurlitz is within a day’s walking distance from Markneukirchen, Klingenthal, and Kraslice. The Wurlitzer family would have been odd, if it didn’t draw on it traditional/regional knowledge and connections, when starting their import business. The windshieldbug knows more about Wurlitzer brasses, than I do.

Klaus

[sloan]

Questions for those with a good eye: does the Wurlitzer match mine?

Questions for historians: did Wurlitzer sell instruments that were labelled *ONLY* "Symphony" - nothing that says "Wurlitzer", no SN, nothing else?

Wurlitzer (in the US) was, of course, famous for making and selling organs. I believe it's true that they sold stencil brasses (both imported and domestic?) Some sources seem to say that Holton may have made brasses for them. Holton & Wurlitzer were both based in Chicago (or so I have read).

I'm *almost* ready to declare that my helicon was made by the same folk who made the Wurlitzer - but there's still the question of where those folk lived. Klaus makes a reasonable case for them being Czech.

I'm still trying to reconstruct the evidence and logic that led me to "someone who worked in H.N. White's shop - but not actually H.N. White" 7 years ago. So far, without success.

[windshieldbug]

Questions for historians: did Wurlitzer sell instruments that were labelled *ONLY* "Symphony" - nothing that says "Wurlitzer", no SN, nothing else?

http://www.deutsche-wurlitzerusa.com/

"
The musical tradition of the
Wurlitzer family can be traced
back to the 17th century.

The forefathers of Rudolph
Wurlitzer, who emigrated to
America in 1853 at the age
of 24, had already made a
name for themselves in Saxony
as manufacturers of and dealers
in musical instruments.

Rudolph Wurlitzer founded
THE WURLITZER COMPANY
in 1856. At first he imported
musical instruments and
opened sales outlets in all big
American cities. He started
production of pianos in America
in 1880.
"

I think that you will find Symphony, Lyric, Lyric Liberty, Melody, Perfection and American among Wurlitzer tradenames, without serial numbers until they later stenciled Conn instruments. Unless the instrument has a post-1991 has a McKinley Trade Act country of origin, one can assume it was at least ASSEMBLED in the US.

[imperialbari]

Mike telling that the original US-Wurlitzer came from a family in Saxony is interesting. Bavaria, where the township of Wurlitz is, is Catholic, whereas Saxony is Protestant. Church affiliation meant very much back then, but of course cross-marriages must have happened then also. The third state in the tri-state joint, Bohemia, was Catholic. All three states were either German speaking or had a very strong German population element. In fact Markneukirchen was founded by German speaking Protestants thrown out of Bohemia by a Catholic king. The Saxon Markgraf gave them the new (neu) church (Kirche) around which they founded their village, hence the name Markneukirchen.

Before seeing the second set of photos (the first was years ago and forgotten by me) I posted photos of an Austrian Heinem Eb piston helicon, because bloke had seen something Austrian in the Symphony. The Heinem and the Symphony have immense differences. One being fat and somewhat similar to the Conn wrap despite the absence of the fake tubing in the shoulder support area, the other being narrow and full circle. However they have one feature being almost similar on both: the valve block. The main bugle exits the 1st piston at the end of the block on the Heinem, perpendicularly on the Symphony. That takes a different routing of the inner knuckles in the first piston, but that is no major technical problem to do that change.



Until B&S started making piston blocks after entering the same ownership as Meinl-Weston, MW bought their blocks from Nirschl, who also has made piston blocks for Hirsbrunner. Making pistons takes larger honing tools than making rotors. My point is that i suspect the Heinem and the Symphony valve blocks coming out of the same workshop. Only one maker in the Austrian-Hungarian double monarchy was big enough to be visited by the emperor, and that maker certainly had the potential to sell valve blocks to smaller makers within that nation. Despite that maker being mostly known for it rotary instruments, it is known to have done a lot of exporting to Russia, the UK, and to the US under a lot of funny names, including its own.

Letting the assembly happen in the US makes sense because of a more compact shipping. And also because the US duty on assembled instruments would be circumvented.

Symphony is a word which cannot be registered as a trademark because it is in too common usage.

Klaus

[sloan]

So...if I may summarize:

a) parts made in German-speaking "Czechoslovakia"
b) shipped to the US, where they were assembled and stenciled "Symphony"
c) perhaps by folk who learned the trade where the parts were made and
then immigrated.

We're still, perhaps, not sure WHO did this assembly and stencilling - but Wurlitzer seems as good a bet as any.

And, it's a bit of a mystery what feature of this horn might be patentable (recall the "Reg. U. S. Patt. Off")

And finally, "late 19th - early 20th century" is pretty broad. Anyone feel confident to hazard a guess on age?

Last time around (again...I seem to have lost the thread of the evidence...) I became convinced that 1895 was a pretty good date - and that's the way I list it in my .signature. But then, at the time I was also moderately sure that the "importer/assembler/stenciller" was somehow associated with H.N. White. If memory serves, I later got some information that cast doubt on that - so I guess I'm happy to go with the "Wurlitzer" concensus.

Question: would the parts shipped from Europe have *included* the cylindrical tubing? bloke was pretty precise when he gave the bore as 0.600" (since confirmed, +/- 0.002", by my calipers). Wouldn't this be an unusual size to find in 1900 Europe? Was it, in fact, a common American size?

And...just to stir the pot: look at the leadpipe on the Wurlitzer photo. One continuous (non-removable) pipe, held in place by a pretty long brace (at least, until this very exposed tubing met an immovable object, like a wall, or floor. My helicon has a jury-rigged/borrowed and re-purposed gooseneck. It looks a tad anachronistic, to me. How much work would it be to fab a replacement that looks original (and plays at least as good as it does now)? Is it possible that *some* of the intonation problems are due to the jury-rigged leadpipe/receiver (recalll that it has a large receiver and the bore apparently steps DOWN at the interface between the gooseneck and the fixed tubing.

[imperialbari]

Isn’t 0.600" pretty exactly 15.25mm? Not totally unlikely.

I have all the way been sceptic about using bits from larger bore instruments on a small bore instrument. The best solution, in my distant opinion, would be to let bloke make a neck from scratch. He will hate to do it, but then it only took two attempts to make one for his own Buescher CC. Bits will be hard to find, so let that function be incorporated in the neck. That will make the instrument individual for your playing, but so be it. The question is whether the receiver shall be for the small Besson type stems. That probably would be best, but the best compromise would rather be a receiver for American size stems.

The element to be patented in the US may have been the long stay.

Some years ago somebody posted photos of a valve block saver for a sousaphone in a gig bag. I think it was a wooden block milled out to save the piston stems from being bent. It then had been covered in naugahyde or something in that direction.

You could make a block out of styrofoam, which you carved to hold the valve stems and the tip of the lower leadpipe. Some satin woven fabric could be used as cover. A strap with velcro could keep it secured during storage and transport.

Klaus